DI and other Supplements are not "core" Core

[William Ronald]

I think around here "Core" generally refers to the basic three books - the stuff you know all groups have, that all groups pick up in order to play the game. That, by extension, is the material developers can feel absolutely free to refer to and assume is understood when building a supplement.

If, for example, Warforged are included in the D&DI, if a developer then refers to them in the PHB3, then you have the problem that anyone who isn't a D&DI subscriber can't fully use the PHB3, and that's bad. Over most of the life of 3.xE, WotC was very good about this. I think if they start referring to supplemental as "core" there's going to be a lot of confusion, and perhaps a tendency to allow these cross-references to slip in.

Incomplete cross-book references may sell comic books, but I think in RPG materials they'll cheese folks off something fierce. I really suggest WotC become disciplined about how they use terms like "core".

Incomplete cross-book references were one of the things that bothered me about TSR's later Forgotten Realms products, which had lots of references to other books.

If something is mentioned in a book, it should be explained in that book.

 

[Pale]

Another point that I forgot to mention in my ramblings:

If they have an entry "Orc Skirmisher" and it's presented as an Orc/1st level Scout, then, without "The Complete Adventurer" I cannot advance this monster in any meaningful way under it's very specialized premise (Orc Scout).

I feel that's my most logical argument.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Another point that I forgot to mention in my ramblings:

If they have an entry "Orc Skirmisher" and it's presented as an Orc/1st level Scout, then, without "The Complete Adventurer" I cannot advance this monster in any meaningful way under it's very specialized premise (Orc Scout).

I feel that's my most logical argument.

See, that's a legit complaint. (Because, you know, you were waiting for nothing more than for me to legitimize your opinion on the matter. )

However... (You know that was coming, right?)

I don't think it's enough of a reason not to include a bit of such material. If a writer feels that he can create a really cool opponent by giving scout levels to an orc (or whatever), and the purpose of the book is primarily to provide opponents ready-to-use (like an MM), I think he should do so. Not being able to advance the orc can be frustrating, but if an idea is cool enough, and it serves its primary purpose well enough, I'm still all for including it.

 

[Pale]

See, that's a legit complaint. (Because, you know, you were waiting for nothing more than for me to legitimize your opinion on the matter. )

However... (You know that was coming, right?)

I don't think it's enough of a reason not to include a bit of such material. If a writer feels that he can create a really cool opponent by giving scout levels to an orc (or whatever), and the purpose of the book is primarily to provide opponents ready-to-use (like an MM), I think he should do so. Not being able to advance the orc can be frustrating, but if an idea is cool enough, and it serves its primary purpose well enough, I'm still all for including it.

<laugh> I'm not saying that it shouldn't be included at all, I'm saying that they should do so very liberally. It irks me more to see this done in, say, a monster collection than to see such things in a module. The reason being is that I see the former as a resource of ideas, not a collection of ready-to-use monsters and the latter as a more "plug-and-play", "fire-and-forget" or as "another-cheeky-metaphor". In fact, seeing them in a module doesn't bother me at all.

Extreme fanboyish aside/threadjack: Just wanted to give you mad props for your Caine VtM novel. I read that again just last month... still good. )

 

[Mouseferatu]

<laugh> I'm not saying that it shouldn't be included at all, I'm saying that they should do so very liberally. It irks me more to see this done in, say, a monster collection than to see such things in a module. The reason being is that I see the former as a resource of ideas, not a collection of ready-to-use monsters and the latter as a more "plug-and-play", "fire-and-forget" or as "another-cheeky-metaphor". In fact, seeing them in a module doesn't bother me at all.

That's fair enough. (And of course, both our points are potentially moot in eight months, depending on how 4E handles similar questions. )

Extreme fanboyish aside/threadjack: Just wanted to give you mad props for your Caine VtM novel. I read that again just last month... still good. )

Thanks.

I hope you like Black Crusade as much. (Plug, plug. )

 

[Pale]

That's fair enough. (And of course, both our points are potentially moot in eight months, depending on how 4E handles similar questions. )

Yeah, I'm still very cautious about the "less of a science, more of an art" statement.

Thanks.

I hope you like Black Crusade as much. (Plug, plug. )

I'll have to look that up.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Yeah, I'm still very cautious about the "less of a science, more of an art" statement.

I'm curious about that, myself. Still, the same was true of things like assigning CR and balancing spells and feats. So as long as it's got at least reasonable guidelines, I'm confident.

I'll have to look that up.

Well, you won't find too much about it yet. It's the first of the new Ravenloft fiction line. Comes out... Uh, March, IIRC.

Edit: And I'm really, really out of it right now, due to sleep deprivation. So if it was tacky of me to bring it up and plug it like that, my apologies.

 

[Pale]

I'm curious about that, myself. Still, the same was true of things like assigning CR and balancing spells and feats. So as long as it's got at least reasonable guidelines, I'm confident.

True dat.

Well, you won't find too much about it yet. It's the first of the new Ravenloft fiction line. Comes out... Uh, March, IIRC.

Edit: And I'm really, really out of it right now, due to sleep deprivation. So if it was tacky of me to bring it up and plug it like that, my apologies.

Ahhh.. **waves hand** don't worry about it. I've been hoping for some good Ravenloft fiction to come along and probably wouldn't have noticed it was out until next summer if you hadn't said anything. So thanks for doing so!

 

[Tarril Wolfeye]

Well, how about calling these non-world-specific supplements "core supplements"?
This way, they're 'core' but more than the 'inner core' which PH, DMG and MM are.

 

[Echohawk]

On a side note, people mention "official" rules. Did WotC ever publish anything for 3.X that wasn't official? Seems to me if they published it, it was official.

Since you asked, yes, there is at least one article published by WotC on their web site which explicitly contains unofficial material.