DID 4E basicly steal the '20 HP kicker' from Hackmaster?

[Lackhand]

If a bear craps in the woods, does anybody care?

This is a trick question, right?

 

[DeathMutant]

Actually, the basic concept I'd guess came from the White Dwarf article "How to lose hit points ... and survive!" from issue 15 in 1979.

Which is how long people have been arguing over HPs not representing actual damage well.

Summary was that you got "Hit Points" which where your 'buffer' against damage - which represented skill, luck and what have you. You also got your Constitution in "Wound Points", which was reduced by anything that skill and luck couldn't stop. Critical hits, falls and so on.

That is very similar to the HP mechanic used in Games Workshop's (White Dwarf is essentially their house magazine) Warhammer Fantasy Role-play game (from 1986).

 

[Ktulu]

I would agree to this, but I'd have to see someone who'd play hackmaster, first (I keed, I keed!)

It's possible they borrowed it, but no one asked this of SWsaga, same designers, even. I'd more likely assume the designers figured a d12 battleaxe can kill any first level character in one hit. There's something wrong with that. Easier than re-designing damage rules is boosing hp. The fact that they're not giving a static HP boost, but instead being the player's CON score also moves it further away from the basic HP kicker from HM.

I see it more like the obvious idea that two parties have realized and implemented, although doing so in a different way.

Ktulu

 

[Spinachcat]

I regularly see the 4e designers being given credit for "innovations" that occured during the days of disco. I am glad to see that D&D is finally catching up.

The low HP at low levels issue was something our group dealt with in high school. You just added your CON to your HP at 1st level and away we went. We did "roll you HD + Con bonus" each day for natural healing and never had much of a problem. I guess that came from us playing lots of other RPGs like RuneQuest and Palladium fantasy.

 

[ForumFerret]

Honestly I'm pretty disappointed the SWSaga HP/VP system got dropped from consideration for 4e. I thought it made a lot of sense and really liked it that it made critical hits -matter-, even from low level enemies. You could never disregard a random alley fighter - he could always get lucky and shank you to death.

It kept you on your toes. I dug that.

I would agree to this, but I'd have to see someone who'd play hackmaster, first (I keed, I keed!)

It's possible they borrowed it, but no one asked this of SWsaga, same designers, even. I'd more likely assume the designers figured a d12 battleaxe can kill any first level character in one hit. There's something wrong with that. Easier than re-designing damage rules is boosing hp. The fact that they're not giving a static HP boost, but instead being the player's CON score also moves it further away from the basic HP kicker from HM.

I see it more like the obvious idea that two parties have realized and implemented, although doing so in a different way.

Ktulu

 

[The Little Raven]

Honestly I'm pretty disappointed the SWSaga HP/VP system got dropped from consideration for 4e.

Saga doesn't use VP/WP. It's uses HP.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

Seeing as how HackMaster is a Joke/Parody of D&D in the first place, I'm pretty sure its the other way around

 

[Gloombunny]

You could never disregard a random alley fighter - he could always get lucky and shank you to death.

That's good for some games, but in D&D you should be able to disregard a kobold if you're enough of a badass.

 

[Sir Brennen]

In Hackmaster, most everything gets a bonus of 20 HP, known as a kicker. Classic hit die amounts from 1E and 2e are basicly preserved, so it winds up a kobold has 21-24 HP, but each hit die adds about 5 onto that total.

Except 4E kobold minions are soap bubbles by comparison.

 

[helium3]

The kicker makes a lot of sense and can be "derived" if you're going about balancing in the way I think the 4E team is. I'd hardly call it an innovation in any sense of the word regardless of which game or era you're talking about. It's really more of a, "no duh!"