Did WotC underestimate the Paizo effect on 4E?

[samursus]

I don't have numbers any more than you have numbers indicating that WotC and Paizo aren't competing, so let's just drop that line of thinking, OK?
But maybe you aren't getting out on the message boards enough. Even here I'm seeing people discussing how much better Paizo adventures are than WotC adventures. If you think that's not resulting in some people choosing to buy the Paizo adventures over the WotC ones with their gaming budget, then I don't think we have views of the gaming world even remotely compatible.

I am one of those who thinks the PF Ap's are vastly superior than WotC's. However, the point of modules, for me and many others, is that we don't have the time or inclination to create our own. So your assertion (if I am reading it correctly) that there is a large segment of 4e players that buy PF AP's to CONVERT to 4e, seems counter intuitive to me.

 

[redboxrazor]

I think WotC may have indeed underestimate Paizo's effect on 4E. I think the Essentials line of products stands as evidence to that to some extent - the return to that pre-4E feel. If anything, Paizo's success must have made it clear to WotC that the legacy classes and power in their essentials line would have some promise. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Azmyth]

I have never & will never play 4e.
I had all but given up on my beloved hobby and hated the direction Wizards had taken it.
Pathfinder has resurrected table top gaming for myself and many others.
I find Paizo's passion and level of excellence unmatched in the market.
I am doing EVERYTHING in my power to spread that passion.

WotC lost me a long time ago.
Paizo brought me back.

Here's a look at how Pathfinder is dominating in my neck of the woods:
Quest for Fun!: Pathfinder Rising

 

[Mark CMG]

Alright, I'm not misremembering...

Chris Pramas in November of 2007 was still under the impression that 4e would be OGl and furthermore makes it clear that at Gencon they had been pretty much assured that 4e would be released under the OGL.



In the same blog post, Pramas quotes Scott Rouse, writing on ENworld about 4e as saying, ""There will be the OGL and Wizards D&D products period."

That was November 7, 2007. Shortly thereafter it became clear, if I remember aright, that WotC had changed their mind and would not go with the OGL.

Fair enough since my own personal knowledge only extends to later in November and it's fair to say that the earlier licensing discussion between WotC and others may have still been using the d20 licensing scheme (plus the OGL) as a baseline terminology despite nothing having been produced (and ultimately turned out to be an avenue WotC decided was not in their interest to follow).

 

[Victim]

I think WotC definitely underestimated the ill will generated by "firing" Paizo from Dragon and Dungeon.

 

[IronWolf]

I don't think there even is a "Paizo effect". Paizo is just another smaller competitor for WotC, and I don't think Pathfinder is doing nearly as good a job bringing new players to RPGing as 4E does.

I do think Paizo could be well served doing an easy entry to Pathfinder product to put out there on the shelves. I suspect WotC is going to have some good success with their new box set for Essentials and I do hope it succeeds. The hobby can use some more RPG gamers and I don't really care if you play 4e, Pathfinder, 3.x, 1e, 2e or OD&D.

But I think Pathfinder does have a grassroots path into their system for new players. As in a lot of folks playing Pathfinder will recruit new folks into the game and the game they introduce people to is Pathfinder. So while there are no formal box sets or campaigns to bring the new to RPG gamers to Pathfinder, I think there is likely a strong grassroots effort out there.

 

[JohnBiles]

Pulling the older edition PDFs of OOP products, especially the 3e/3.5e products which are pretty much compatible with Pathfinder, is ample proof they have at least noticed Paizo has had some effect.

Actually, it has nothing to do with Pathfinder whatsoever and everything to do with them being paranoid about piracy of PDFs which was rife up to that point.

 

[IronWolf]

..... everything to do with them being paranoid about piracy of PDFs which was rife up to that point.

I agree they were super concerned with piracy of their PDFs and books, but their pulling PDFs didn't really solve the problem did it? It just kept people willing to pay money to be legit from having that option.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm not sure how much "Paizo" has to do with this, but I think WotC underestimated the radicalness of the changeover from 3e to 4e. I think that Essentials (with their callback to earlier editions, like autohit magic missile, schools of magic, domains, backstab, "mage" and "thief" builds, as well as the classic artwork on the redbox) shows that WotC understands the call for nostalgic elements in D&D, even if they're just names and some subtle nods to difference in power structure.

In short, I doubt WotC would be worrying about calling back "lapsed" players like this if there wasn't some small threat from well supported OGL games like retro clones or Pathfinder.

 

[doctorhook]

I still find it a little crazy that WotC shut down Paizo's Dungeon and Dragon.

Why? It was WotC's property, and they wanted to do something very different with it. What's crazy about taking it back so that they can do that?

I'm guessing it's the "something very different that they wanted to do" that bothers you.

I think WotC definitely underestimated the ill will generated by "firing" Paizo from Dragon and Dungeon.

Maybe in a few cases. IME though, more people were upset that they weren't going to be dead-tree products anymore than were upset about the change in management.

I think WotC may have indeed underestimate Paizo's effect on 4E. I think the Essentials line of products stands as evidence to that to some extent - the return to that pre-4E feel. If anything, Paizo's success must have made it clear to WotC that the legacy classes and power in their essentials line would have some promise. Just my 2 cents.

That's a legitimate theory, although I dispute whether Paizo really has anything to do with it. Certainly Essentials has shown a lot of "older-D&D" class flavour, so obviously WotC is aiming to attract people familiar with previous editions, but it's not clear that Pathfinder fanbois are the sole or even primary target for that development.

I have never & will never play 4e.
I had all but given up on my beloved hobby and hated the direction Wizards had taken it.
Pathfinder has resurrected table top gaming for myself and many others.
I find Paizo's passion and level of excellence unmatched in the market.
I am doing EVERYTHING in my power to spread that passion.

WotC lost me a long time ago.
Paizo brought me back.

Here's a look at how Pathfinder is dominating in my neck of the woods:
Quest for Fun!: Pathfinder Rising

Paragraph removed. Keep real-world politics and name-calling off these boards, please. -Eridanis

I do think Paizo could be well served doing an easy entry to Pathfinder product to put out there on the shelves. I suspect WotC is going to have some good success with their new box set for Essentials and I do hope it succeeds. The hobby can use some more RPG gamers and I don't really care if you play 4e, Pathfinder, 3.x, 1e, 2e or OD&D.

But I think Pathfinder does have a grassroots path into their system for new players. As in a lot of folks playing Pathfinder will recruit new folks into the game and the game they introduce people to is Pathfinder. So while there are no formal box sets or campaigns to bring the new to RPG gamers to Pathfinder, I think there is likely a strong grassroots effort out there.

I agree, the ol' "Here's a big fat rulebook for you to read" strategy of recruiting new players is gradually going extinct. That said, don't underestimate the grassroots marketing of 4E, either; it may well be that Pathfinder is spreading well through the "hardcore" gaming community, but I would lay money on 4E selling a hell of a lot better among new and casual gamers. D&D still has a much wider brand recognition than Pathfinder, and 4E is arguably a much easier game to run.