Differences in powergaming in 1st/2nd and 3.0/3.5

[Zendragon]

1st was all about the dual classing. I remember a 15 Ranger/16 Archer (from Dragon), a 16 Cleric/18 Magic user. With the experience points and level progression going back to 1st level, It was nothing to move up from 1st to 10th in a hurry. Take about 10 levels of Fighter to beef up the hit points and then move into the class you wanted.
Ahh good times.

 

[el-remmen]

Don't forget that in 2E choice of kit was often way to get a huge power boost.

 

[wayne62682]

I honestly think the main problem people have is that 3.x takes power away from the DM (removes the "Mother may I?" factor) and puts it in the hands of the players. Almost every person who has issues with 3.x's new "feel" has it because the DM isn't the almighty Lord anymore, and the players have more freedom to build what they want without asking permission to do so.

 

[Korgoth]

Basically, power gaming is all about getting a "combo". It was hard to have such a combo in the old days because there were narrower niches, heavy restrictions on multi- and dual-classing (or no provision for it at all, in some editions). There weren't many types of things to combine to get a combo started.

There was a blip here or there, like Unearthed Arcana, which I don't care for. But during the High Gygaxian period, there really were no "killer combos" to be had.

This changed in 2nd ed, because they added in a lot of kits, new races, new racial kits, new rules, etc. The absolute worst I ever saw in 2nd ed was a Lizardman Fighter w/ a 19 Str and specialized in Dart. That character was a total machinegun... it was preposterous. It was the DM's fault for allowing a Lizardman PC, but he did it in good faith and got burned for it.

In 3E, there are tons of powers, classes, PrCs, feats, and shop-till-you-drop magic items. There's nothing in the 3E rules that says you have to powergame, but (1) it's readily possible with that plethora of options and (2) when you've got Master Blaster the Scorching Ray lamer doing 100+ points of damage a round, you're going to feel like your entirely non-minmaxed rogue doing 1d8 with his crossbow just isn't cutting it.

It's the same problem as Ma-Deuce the Lizard Boy: for the DM to challenge him, he has to vaporize everybody else; to avoid vaporizing everybody else, MDLB runs roughshod over the whole adventure. And this is not a temporary thing, like a level disparity (which, at least under some XP regimes, gets corrected fairly soon)... T3h Ch33zmztR is always going to outstrip everybody because he's based on an exploit in the rules.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I see 3rd Edition starting to make some of the mistakes that killed 2nd Edition: rules creep, options out the wazoo. I like options more than most people, but come on. Almost 1,000 prestige classes in WotC published materials? Yikes.

I'm sorry, but that's way off. I counted them just this week, winnowing down the Prestige Class Index on Wizards of the Coast's website to include only those published since the 3.5 revision.

There were 524.

I mean, yes, that's a big number, but it's nowhere near 1,000. Hell, even before you cut the list down Wizards of the Coast only lists 762 - and if you eliminate those pre-revision prestige classes that were reprinted in the Complete series and elsewhere, I think the true number is more like 600.

Again, that seems like a lot - but D&D is the world's biggest and most popular roleplaying game, so it's no suprise to me that they publish a lot of material. If you balanced the number of D&D characters being played against the options available, and compared the results to a similar examination of the number of GURPS, Hero, World of Darkness, Palladium, or Unisystem characters being played balanced against the options available in those games, I bet that there wouldn't be a relative excess of options in D&D.

 

[molonel]

I mean, yes, that's a big number, but it's nowhere near 1,000. Hell, even before you cut the list down Wizards of the Coast only lists 762 - and if you eliminate those pre-revision prestige classes that were reprinted in the Complete series and elsewhere, I think the true number is more like 600.

Again, that seems like a lot - but D&D is the world's biggest and most popular roleplaying game, so it's no suprise to me that they publish a lot of material. If you balanced the number of D&D characters being played against the options available, and compared the results to a similar examination of the number of GURPS, Hero, World of Darkness, Palladium, or Unisystem characters being played balanced against the options available in those games, I bet that there wouldn't be a relative excess of options in D&D.

I said 3rd Edition, which includes both 3.0 and 3.5 under its rubric. And 762 is getting to ... almost 1,000.

I love D&D. It's my main game of choice.

But enough with the @#$#@ing prestige classes, already. Enough with the feats.

You really can have too much of a good thing.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

You clearly don't know how to powergame in 1E and 2E. This is how you powergame in 1E/2E.

 

[Imaro]

I'm sorry, but that's way off. I counted them just this week, winnowing down the Prestige Class Index on Wizards of the Coast's website to include only those published since the 3.5 revision.

There were 524.

I mean, yes, that's a big number, but it's nowhere near 1,000. Hell, even before you cut the list down Wizards of the Coast only lists 762 - and if you eliminate those pre-revision prestige classes that were reprinted in the Complete series and elsewhere, I think the true number is more like 600.

Again, that seems like a lot - but D&D is the world's biggest and most popular roleplaying game, so it's no suprise to me that they publish a lot of material. If you balanced the number of D&D characters being played against the options available, and compared the results to a similar examination of the number of GURPS, Hero, World of Darkness, Palladium, or Unisystem characters being played balanced against the options available in those games, I bet that there wouldn't be a relative excess of options in D&D.

The thing is a PrC is only one of numerous options and you still only have one character at a time. If you've read any of my recent posts then its no surprise that I enjoy C&C better than D&D 3.x. I think my biggest problem is that I enjoy class based and point -buy games equally but for different reasons.

Point-buy (IMHO) are all about the options, its their biggest draw and I realize as GM I am responsible for making sure that the players respect and fit in with the type or style of game I am running. When I choose to run a point-buy system I expect to have to do this type of work.

Class-based I play because they are narrower, usually the classes are supposed to be balanced with each other and the amount of checking and policeing I have to do is minimal(and even when I do have to police, classes should make it easier with limited options for me to go over). When I don't want to do the type of work associated with point-buy's I turn to a class based games D&D,AD&D1e and C&C do this but it's where D&D 3.x fails me.

It has almost reached the level of a low to mid range point-buy(certainly more options in the 3.x corebooks than in the WoD core.) in the amount of options, combos,etc. that must be examined and looked over. As a player I find it takes just as much, or more time to create a character for D&D 3.x as many point-buy games. I mean it appears to be some type of hybrid that doesn't gain the benefits I am looking for from either type of system.

 

[Sadrik]

See I think 2ed and 3ed suffer from different situational problems. Both editions are "snowballing" but 2ed was a rules mess. The books were not balanced or even pretended to use the same formating of basic rules. In the thief's book kits had skill proficiency requirements and in other books the kits gave bonus skill proficiencies. The game devolved further and further into a rules mess.

3ed has not done this. It has gone a different route. It has uncontrollably given so many options too you that you dont even know where to begin half the time. And with each new add on it gets more extreme. The feat choices in particular or meeting requirements for feats or PrCs that you have no idea if the campaign will even go that long type of stuff.

I used to sit around reading cool settings like Birthright, Al-Qadim, Ravenloft and Dark Sun. Now I feel like I am sitting around reading far too many feats, PrCs, and alternate class levels and on and on...

 

[Campbell]

In my experience, the primary difference between 3e and its revision and the versions of the game that sub ceded is that 3e offers a much larger degree of meaningful mechanical decisions who are not arcane spell casters. Whereas a character's abilities in 2nd edition were pretty much set in stone at 1st level, in 3e each level presents at least one choice in how a character's abilities develop over time. It goes without saying that Power Gamers have more opportunities to scratch to itch, since Power Gaming is all about optimizing choices. Role playing games where abilities are purchased discretely with experience, karma, or some form of character points also have a similar effect, but in an even more pronounced way than 3e.

While Power Gaming might thrive in this environment, it's helpful to consider the other effects 3e's design has on the game. It can also provide in environment where character abilities progress in a more organic way, reflecting the impact that life experiences and tactical considerations have on the abilities that a character chooses to develop. Sometimes, as is the case for a latent talent for sorcery, a divine calling or the development of psionic ability it might not even be a choice on the character's part.