Dire Tigers CR is WRONG.....

[Pielorinho]

Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal
Colossal Vermin
64d8+128 (416 hp)
+0
50 ft.
20 (-8 size, +18 natural)
2 claws +49 melee,
sting +44 melee
Claw 2d8+9, sting 2d8+4
and poison
40 ft. by 80 ft./15 ft.
Improved grab, squeeze, poison
Vermin
Fort +36, Ref +21, Will +21
Str 29, Dex 10, Con 14,
Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2
Climb +16, Hide -8, Spot +7
Temperate and warm land
and underground
Solitary
11
1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
Always neutral
-

Huh. The following 9th-level PC can defeat the scorpion single-handedly without taking any damage:
Frankie Flamethrower
9th-level rogue
High dex
Heward's Handy Haversack
many alchemist's fires
Rapid shot feat
Maxed-out use magic device skill
Scroll of improved invisibility
Scroll of fly

Technique:
Listen for/ watch for the scorpion approaching. With a hide check of -8, no problemo.
Round 1: Cast fly from scroll and get into the air.
Round 2: Cast invisibility from scroll and fly 30' above the scorpion.
Round 3: Throw three alchemist's fires at scorpion. Since you're invisible, and since it's a touch attack, you'll miss only on a 1. Each flask will do 1d6 fire damage + 5d6 sneak attack damage + 1 point blank shot. On average, each round you'll hit thrice, doing 22 points of damage per shot, or 66 points total per round. To account for misses, let's knock it down to 63 points per round.

The poor beast is likely to run away, but that's okay: your movement rate is superior. If it stands to fight, great: more full attacks for you! If it doesn't, fine -- chase after it and herd it with your alchemist's fires. Long before your two spells run out, you'll have a dead colossal scorpion.

Anubis, methinks you've got a bit of hyperbole going when you say that an eleventh-level party can never take on one of these bad boys.

Daniel

 

[WizarDru]

I'm sorry, but a Colossal Monstrous Scorpion WILL (not might, WILL) bring about a TPK EVERY SINGLE TIME against a Level 11 party with no exceptions. This is an impossible encounter.

That rheotoric's a tad strong, don't you think? I can guarantee you, this is not a guaranteed TPK for an 11th level party. Dangerous? Clearly. But he's got plenty of weaknesses going for him. He's Collosal, for a start. That means he can't fit a lot of places (40x80), has a touch AC of 2 and a normal AC of 20. He has no stealth capability, a mere +7 Spot (and thus easily to hide from) and no magical defenses to speak of.

An archer at this level could destroy this thing unaided if they started far enough apart. A barbarian with a broadsword and some buffs could stand up to it, as well. On average, it will deal, what, 25 points of damage on a full attack? With a cleric in tow, this poor bug is toast. With 6th level spells in operation, things aren't going too badly, either. Acid Fog doesn't require a save, for example, and Freezing Sphere requires only a ranged touch (AC 2, remember) and that's 11d6 right there. Most of the wizard's direct damagers will do half of 11d6.

Let's not forget that he can't even fly, which at least half the party will do by this level, let alone polymorphs and other abilities.

The cleric is doing fine, too. How about Blade Barrier? Save to avoid the first time, but each succesive round...nada. A creature as big as that is just waiting to be chopped and diced. Got a druid handy? Say hello to anti-life shell and fire seeds.

Not to mention the buffs that are available at this level. You've got tons of defensive buffs, such as Blur, Mirror Image and a host of others to make this a much less lethal encounter than you might suggest. That's not even counting animal companions, summoned monsters and cohorts to join in the fun. My experience has shown that the CR system does get wonky at points, but not nearly as out of whack as some folks would represent.

I respect Upper Krust's work, and it may actually even do what is represented. What it doesn't do is make things any easier for me, the DM. Calculating fractional CRs and ELs and inflating them is not really terribly helpful, to me. UK's system requires you to accept his values or do the math yourself, and it still doesn't really help, as it doesn't factor in a ton of factors beyond the MM or his control.

The CR system is a guideline, and a pretty darn good one. It gives a rough estimate of what to expect. The combinations of classes, abilities, spells and magic items make it difficult for any system to serve the double-duty of being both quick and informative. I've run a group of 18th-level PCs against a CR 23 creature....and they all survived to tell the tale. Things like preparation, party synergy and a host of other pieces of the puzzle make CR a good estimate, but not an actual iron-clad number.

 

[Pielorinho]

Another strategy against this bad boy: empty a wand of melf's onto him. That's 200d4 points of damage: if 5% of the charges miss, it's 190d4 points of damage. On average, that's 475 points of damage, enough to take it out nicely.

Expensive, but a 5th-level wizard could take out a colossal scorpion single-handedly with a wand of melf's and a single fly spell, as long as the scorpion was in the desert and had nowhere to hide. Heck -- a 1st-level wizard equipped with a wand of melf's and a potion of fly would do the trick.

Edit: Even cheaper: get two wands of magic missile at 3rd level each. Use one up, and use ten charges from the second, to do 420 points of damage on average, enough to take the scorpion down. With the potion included, that's 3,450 gp worth of equipment to take out one monster, kind of spendy; on the other hand, this is a technique that allows a single first-level character to take out a CR 11 creature at no risk to herself. It is completely reasonable for even a seventh-level PC to have these two wands and access to a flying scroll; if the PC creates the wands herself, the cost of the battle is only 1,350 gp and 40-odd XP.

CR ratings aren't reliable, I think, because the battle's context is so important. As you can see, what looks like a tough monster when you're a fighter is embarrassingly simple if you're a flying wizard.

Daniel

 

[Darklone]

Colossal scorpion... Hmm. Delay poison on the tank, then neutralize poison later and you have him dead with two spells.

This nearly works for a druid and fighter lvl7. Ok, the fighter will have a hard time with the attacks ... But noone's perfect

 

[Spatzimaus]

Re: Colossal Scorpion:
*cough*HARM*cough*
Ah, using a broken spell to counter a broken CR. Otto's works also; anything without a save and that doesn't care how many HP you have is perfect here.

Here's the way I see it. There are three kinds of monster:
1> The brute-force types. Animals, especially Dire ones, Beasts, Vermin, etc. fall into this category.
2> The cool-ability ones. Fey, for example. Pathetic combat abilities, but powerful magic.
3> The mixed-bag guys. Outsiders and Dragons, with a little bit of everything.

Groups of adventurers almost ALWAYS would fall into that third group, even if the individuals don't. How many parties have you seen with all Fighters, all Mages, or all Clerics... well, drop that last one. Each group always has a weak point, since it's the combination of different styles. The Monk ignores the fighter-types and goes after the spellcasters. The Fighter goes after the Rogues. The Wizard goes after the Fighter. And so on.

So, when you send the party up against something from group 3 (or a mixed combination of 1 and 2), no problem, the CR system works just fine. Everyone goes after their natural targets, and the bad guys don't have any single ability strong enough to consistently drop any of the good guys in one shot. The group works together, all that healing and flanking and such.

In my experience, the problems start when you throw all group 1 or all group 2 at the party, which is especially easy if it's the one-big-monster variety. You're increasing the deadliness against the enemy's chosen prey without increasing its vulnerabilities from certain party members. You're more likely to have a few people twiddling their thumbs since their types of attacks can't get through. Besides not being fun, it's also dangerous.

Which is more likely to cause casualties:
A> a Fiendish Dire Tiger, or
B> a CR 8 spellcaster riding a CR 8 Dire Tiger?
B might do more damage spread across the whole group, but A is more likely to just absolutely slaughter one or two party members before going down; Pounce + Smite Good... (Although, the thought of a Hasted, buffed up Dire Tiger is enough to give the willies.)

 

[Anubis]

Perhaps, but when that party of average 11 level is not surprised the scorpion will be dead or avoided without much difficulty. First of all, the smart cleric will have a delay poison ready (highly underrated spell btw). The mage will have a couple of fly spells and with a bit of intelligence a stoneskin on the fighter. Since by that time a fighter can deal about 100 damage per round. Of course, if they have an archer in the group it will be a simple matter of flying and raining death on the creature. Remember, the creature has no intelligence and it should be played as such. Though I do agree that it probably should be higher CR and it is definitely not something to use as a random encounter.

When I started playing 3rd edition, I thought CR was crap as well. After three years of experience, I have learned CR works quite well (also the CRs given in the MM) for most monsters. CRs will always be guesses though, since the composition of the party, their spell selection and the environment will have quite an impact on the final challenge of the encounter.

First off, I have never seen a Level 11 Fighter deal 100 damage per round without multiple critical hits. Second, the Colossal Monstrous Scorpion could kill any Level 11 character just about in a single round pretty easily. Third, there is absolutely no guarantee that those spells will be handy. Fly is not a spell that is commonly taken all the time (Dispel Magic, Fireball, and Haste are far more common) and Stoneskin will only work for so long.

A Level 11 party has almost NO chance at all. Only and instant death spell would do it, and the thing would have to roll a 1, putting such a chance as "slim to none". Hell a Level 1 party could kill a pit fiend with the instant kill rule, but it's not likely to happen!

 

[Anubis]

Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal
Colossal Vermin
64d8+128 (416 hp)
+0
50 ft.
20 (-8 size, +18 natural)
2 claws +49 melee,
sting +44 melee
Claw 2d8+9, sting 2d8+4
and poison
40 ft. by 80 ft./15 ft.
Improved grab, squeeze, poison
Vermin
Fort +36, Ref +21, Will +21
Str 29, Dex 10, Con 14,
Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2
Climb +16, Hide -8, Spot +7
Temperate and warm land
and underground
Solitary
11
1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
Always neutral
-

Huh. The following 9th-level PC can defeat the scorpion single-handedly without taking any damage:
Frankie Flamethrower
9th-level rogue
High dex
Heward's Handy Haversack
many alchemist's fires
Rapid shot feat
Maxed-out use magic device skill
Scroll of improved invisibility
Scroll of fly

Technique:
Listen for/ watch for the scorpion approaching. With a hide check of -8, no problemo.
Round 1: Cast fly from scroll and get into the air.
Round 2: Cast invisibility from scroll and fly 30' above the scorpion.
Round 3: Throw three alchemist's fires at scorpion. Since you're invisible, and since it's a touch attack, you'll miss only on a 1. Each flask will do 1d6 fire damage + 5d6 sneak attack damage + 1 point blank shot. On average, each round you'll hit thrice, doing 22 points of damage per shot, or 66 points total per round. To account for misses, let's knock it down to 63 points per round.

The poor beast is likely to run away, but that's okay: your movement rate is superior. If it stands to fight, great: more full attacks for you! If it doesn't, fine -- chase after it and herd it with your alchemist's fires. Long before your two spells run out, you'll have a dead colossal scorpion.

Anubis, methinks you've got a bit of hyperbole going when you say that an eleventh-level party can never take on one of these bad boys.

Daniel

Using a smackdown and a situation that would only happen 1% of the time doesn't qualify. This goes under the "TECHNICALLY Level 1 PCs can kill a pit fiend" category. Sorry.

 

[Pielorinho]

Using a smackdown and a situation that would only happen 1% of the time doesn't qualify. This goes under the "TECHNICALLY Level 1 PCs can kill a pit fiend" category. Sorry.

Sure, a first-level PC can't normally do it. But fly is no doubt the most commonly-taken 3rd-level spell in the games I play in: the ability to take to the air in response to a landbound enemy is extremely important.

Even non-wizard PCs tend to have some means to fly in the games I play in. Our current PC include:

-Sorcerer who can cast fly
-Dwarven cleric with wings of flying
-Druid who can shapeshift
-Monk who can't fly, but who can spider-climb walls and/or receive a fly spell from the sorcerer.

If our group of 9th and 10th-level PC encountered the colossal scorpion, as long as we could get in the air, it would be a trivial challenge to us. It would have been a trivial challenge to us when we were seventh level.

I don't think our group is that unusual.

Daniel

 

[LokiDR]

I will echo Pielorinho. The monsterous scorpian can be beyond deadly or really easy. Here is another tatic: coin with deaper darkness, blindfold of true dark, boots of striding and springing. The beasty won't know what square to hit.

For any cheesy over-advanced monster, there is a cheesy PC tatic. But do you really want to play that game? If you want mad escalation and one-upmanship, your game will start resembling DBZ more than King Arthur. Both can be fun, but don't confuse one for the other. If a DM is just throwing bigger and badder monsters, without considering the consequences, he is looking for a TPK or the players to powergame.

CR may not be perfect, but it is a good starting point.

 

[Pielorinho]

For any cheesy over-advanced monster, there is a cheesy PC tatic. But do you really want to play that game?

CR may not be perfect, but it is a good starting point.

I agree that it's a good starting point. Although I mentioned some cheesy tactics allowing low-level PCs to defeat the colossal scorpion, I did have a more important point: large creatures (colossal scorpions, dire tigers, etc.) often don't have any ranged attacks. In those cases, they can be extremely easy for a flying, ranged-attack-making PC to take out. In D&D terms, making ranged attacks from the air is a fairly simple proposition once you hit fifth or sixth level (or, more accurately, once the party wizard or sorcerer does ). At that point, creatures with no ability to make ranged attacks become sitting ducks.

Flying ranged-attacks isn't a specific cheese tactic: on the contrary, it should be a staple tactic of the compleat adventuring group.

Daniel