Dire Tigers CR is WRONG.....

[WizarDru]

First off, I have never seen a Level 11 Fighter deal 100 damage per round without multiple critical hits.

Then you've never seen either of the two examples I've already given with full buffs from the cleric and mage go to town. Those aren't theoretical examples...I've run the games in which they operated. An archer with a few simple buffs and the appropriate equipment for a character of 11th level can easily deal out this kind of damage. And a zweihander expert who's raging, has all the appropriate feats, is bull's strengthed and so forth...you don't want to get in his way. Especially when his improved critical helps that keen weapon along.

Quite frankly, there are much better examples of incorrect CRs than this big bug. In both directions. ("Or, as my party likes to say...Rast: the picture in the MM is ACTUAL SIZE.")

 

[LokiDR]

I agree that it's a good starting point. Although I mentioned some cheesy tactics allowing low-level PCs to defeat the colossal scorpion, I did have a more important point: large creatures (colossal scorpions, dire tigers, etc.) often don't have any ranged attacks. In those cases, they can be extremely easy for a flying, ranged-attack-making PC to take out. In D&D terms, making ranged attacks from the air is a fairly simple proposition once you hit fifth or sixth level (or, more accurately, once the party wizard or sorcerer does ). At that point, creatures with no ability to make ranged attacks become sitting ducks.

Flying ranged-attacks isn't a specific cheese tactic: on the contrary, it should be a staple tactic of the compleat adventuring group.

Daniel

Flying isn't a staple in every campaign, but it is in many. What I really wanted to point out is that there are several methods to beat this monster, if any one says there is only one solution. Some methods are cheesier than others, depending on campaign.

 

[Grog]

CR may not be perfect, but it is a good starting point.

I disagree. CRs tend to run the gamut from basically useless to dangerously misleading. They're basically useless because the DM still has to tailor encounters to the party's abilities, and many creatures tend to offer an "all-or-nothing" encounter. Take the monstrous scorpion posted here - it will annihilate a party in meele, but a flying party could kill it with ranged attacks without taking a single hit.

And in some cases, CRs are worse than useless. A DM who throws a girallon (CR 5) at a 5th level party is pretty much guaranteed to kill at least one character unless there are special circumstances or the party gets insanely lucky. If a dragon attacks a party of the same level as its CR, there's a significant risk of TPK.

When I DM, I've learned to ignore CRs when designing encounters and instead look at the monsters' hit points, damage, special abilities, etc., and compare them to what the party can do. The problem is, the CR is always there in the back of your mind, and it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking, "Well, this monster has a lower CR than the party, so they should be able to beat it easily". That's been a recepie for character death and near TPK a couple of times - which doesn't speak of a well-designed system.

 

[Spatzimaus]

The "all-flying" debate got me thinking of something else. The last adventuring group I was in were the cautious types. Everyone always had escape plans. If we ran into something we weren't prepared for, we'd bug out instead of charging into a bad situation. Take that scorpion, for example; if he caught us at close range, we'd teleport, fly, invis, whatever out of there, and then find a way to take it out safely. After all, we KNEW that fighting on its terms would result in deaths.

On the other hand, I've played in a group where the front-line fighter (a Barbarian) thought the solution to every problem was to charge at it while screaming. Okay, he was roleplaying it really well, but it still caused more near-TPKs than anything else.

The point is, if you've got a party that tries to fight every encounter on the spot, you tend to get a casual attitude towards Raise Dead for all the wrong reasons. This will tend to skew CR estimates, too.

 

[kigmatzomat]

People are getting way too fancy with this scorpion. Here's some nice 11th level tactics:

Create Food. Amazing how many vermin forget to fight when presented food.

Wall of (XX) Hide from it. Vermin have the attention span of a crack addicted chihuahua with A.D.D & alzheimer's.

Summon (blah) Summon a flying creature with a ranged attack (i.e. archon, arrowhawk) to lure it off.

 

[LokiDR]

I disagree. CRs tend to run the gamut from basically useless to dangerously misleading. They're basically useless because the DM still has to tailor encounters to the party's abilities, and many creatures tend to offer an "all-or-nothing" encounter. Take the monstrous scorpion posted here - it will annihilate a party in meele, but a flying party could kill it with ranged attacks without taking a single hit.

And in some cases, CRs are worse than useless. A DM who throws a girallon (CR 5) at a 5th level party is pretty much guaranteed to kill at least one character unless there are special circumstances or the party gets insanely lucky. If a dragon attacks a party of the same level as its CR, there's a significant risk of TPK.

When I DM, I've learned to ignore CRs when designing encounters and instead look at the monsters' hit points, damage, special abilities, etc., and compare them to what the party can do. The problem is, the CR is always there in the back of your mind, and it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking, "Well, this monster has a lower CR than the party, so they should be able to beat it easily". That's been a recepie for character death and near TPK a couple of times - which doesn't speak of a well-designed system.

I have never seen a party face a creature of their own CR and get slaughtered. Then again, I use some restraint. Dragons have too low a CR, as many agree. The ghost template should never be used as a combat improvement.

People keep mentioning girallon against a 5th level party, and I suspect it might be hard. This doesn't mean I would consider it for a 10th level party. It couldn't kill the fighter in a round, but the fighter could easily kill it. Maybe 7-8. Note I started with 5 and adjusted. I didn't start from scatch.

You can not expect CR to dictate all your challanges, as many here have mentioned. If the party lacks a cleric, poison becomes a lot harder to deal with. If the party lacks magical weapons, anything with DR becomes a lot more dangerous. CR can't take all parties in to account. Likewise, bad tatics can ruin your plans. If everyone steps into melee with the melee monster (Dire Tiger) you have to fudge the combat or give them what they have asked for.

I would like to point out that CRs for characters the party faces are complete off. An NPC fighter is a CR about his level. A prepared cleric or wizard is higher, a lot higher, than their level in CR. Like I said, adjust.

 

[the Jester]

CRs seem to me to assume that at least one party member of a mythical four-party balanced team that is fighting the monster is optimized against it. F'rex, undead CRs tend to suggest a paladin or cleric is there to help fight it since they have the best undead-smacking abilities, animal CRs seem to include the premise that a ranger or druid might be able to influence or charm it, etc.

 

[Celebrim]

In my experience, big vermin tend to get slaughtered. I'd expect the scorpion to go down in 2-3 rounds vs. a level 11 party. The scorpion has only two things going for it: improved grab and poison. Neither improved grab nor poison counts as an unexpected hazard. Any 11th level party that doesn't have the means to address both issues is played by utter neophytes who got to 11th level waaay to fast.

The only way the scorpion has half a chance is if the DM goes, 'Poof! There is an enormous scorpion next to you and it is attacking.'

 

[Anubis]

You're missing the point. If the CR was anywhere near accurate, you would only use up to 20% of your resources. All these things you say, they not only require you to know the encounter is going to happen before it does (very rare situation), they also require you to have a specific uncommon set of equipment and/or spells handy (also rare) and these tactics STILL use more than 20% of your resources. A 20% encounter is one where you can go toe-to-toe and win most of the time without using hardly any resources at all.

Also, if the CR was even close, a party could handle four or five such encounters, which is clearly not the case. Great, use your tactic to beat the thing. What will you do when you meet another an hour later? What will you do if you meet a third after that?

None of you can give any way for low-level parties to do that and live to tell about it. Most parties couldn't get past even one much less several. Try using a standard party and standard situations and then you'll see.

This thing is simply CR 41/EL 22. You're gonna be Level 40 before you can take these things on at any normal rate.

 

[Storm Raven]

You're missing the point. If the CR was anywhere near accurate, you would only use up to 20% of your resources. All these things you say, they not only require you to know the encounter is going to happen before it does (very rare situation), they also require you to have a specific uncommon set of equipment and/or spells handy (also rare) and these tactics STILL use more than 20% of your resources. A 20% encounter is one where you can go toe-to-toe and win most of the time without using hardly any resources at all.

Maybe they are uncommon spells and unusual equipment in your experience. My experience is different.

Also, if the CR was even close, a party could handle four or five such encounters, which is clearly not the case. Great, use your tactic to beat the thing. What will you do when you meet another an hour later? What will you do if you meet a third after that?

I figure you would fly again, or use some other similar tactic. 11th level characters have plenty of ammunition available. Its not like using up 3rd and 4th level spell slots necessarily cripples an 11th level party. (Note, for example, that if a wizard cast fly the first encounter, an hour later it is still active).

This thing is simply CR 41/EL 22. You're gonna be Level 40 before you can take these things on at any normal rate.

You are insane. The colossal monstrous scorpion is dead meat when faced by a properly equipped competently played party of 11th level characters. If you want to stand toe to toe with a mundane shortsword you won't fare well, but high level parties should have little trouble mopping the floor with such an obvious opponent.