Dire Tigers CR is WRONG.....

[Pielorinho]

None of you can give any way for low-level parties to do that and live to tell about it. Most parties couldn't get past even one much less several. Try using a standard party and standard situations and then you'll see.

This thing is simply CR 41/EL 22. You're gonna be Level 40 before you can take these things on at any normal rate.

Of course we can. In fact, I already gave you a party that could take this thing on without any problem -- the party that we're going through RttTemple of Elemental Evil with, in fact. Our four 9th- and 10th-level characters could take on colossal scorpions until the cows came home, as long as we could confront them outdoors and one at a time.

How would we likely do it?
1) Druid wildshapes into a hawk and high-tails it out of range.
2) Dwarven cleric takes to the air with his wings of flying, and begins using a sling.
3) Sorcerer casts fly on herself and then on monk.
4) Monk runs away until fly gets cast on him; then he starts pegging the scorpion with arrows.
5) Druid, in hawk shape, retrieves arrows that have been fired and brings them back to the monk.

As you can see, our only real limitation on fighting these scorpions would be running out of arrows. With the monk doing about 12-13 points of damage with each arrow, it'd take about two quivers to kill a scorpion. We carry extra quivers around in a Heward's Handy Haversack; between these extra quivers and the retrieval of arrows by the druid, we shouldn't have any trouble at all.

Resources used:
-Arrows
-Sling bullets
-2 3rd-level spells
-1 wildshape

Not close to 25% of our resources. No hit points used, no potions/scrolls/charged items used, only two spells used from our arsenal of around two or three dozen spells, and one special ability.

Of course, this assumes that we only found out we'd be fighting scorpions a couple rounds before they showed up. If we knew we'd be hunting them, we'd be more efficient.

Compare your CR of 41 to the CR of, say, a party of four mindflayers. Jiminy cricket, but I'd much rather face the scorpion than the EL 12 mindflayer encounter.

I think you're way off in your estimate, because you're not factoring in the average party's ability to make ranged attacks from the air and the scorpion's total inability to deal with this tactic.

Daniel

 

[LokiDR]

My cheesy solution of blindfold, coin, and boots works for days. I can fight any number of encounters in that time and not have a problem.

Any party that faces a collosal scorpian mono-e-mono should die, even if they are higher level than its CR. That is like saying your characters should settle disputes with fire giants by arm wrestling.

 

[Hejdun]

And in some cases, CRs are worse than useless. A DM who throws a girallon (CR 5) at a 5th level party is pretty much guaranteed to kill at least one character unless there are special circumstances or the party gets insanely lucky.

Or, in my case, a TPK. The party hardly even put up a fight. The girallon shredded one character every round, and the party wasn't fast enough to run away and incapable of dealing solid damage to it.

 

[WizarDru]

None of you can give any way for low-level parties to do that and live to tell about it. Most parties couldn't get past even one much less several. Try using a standard party and standard situations and then you'll see.

This thing is simply CR 41/EL 22. You're gonna be Level 40 before you can take these things on at any normal rate.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. The scorpion is CR 11. Why would we be discussing low-level parties in relation to it? A 9th level party will find this a dangerous encounter...by design. Not unbeatable, but potentially lethal. But with the relatively low damage output of the scorpion, one archer and a wizard could hold off the creature...with the aid of a cleric, they would do fine.

Are you seriously trying to say that a party would have to be 40th level before they could reasonably deal with this creature? Because I think you must be playing some non-standard, very low magic and resource version of D&D, and not core standard.

How would you rate a CR 23 Winterwight, then? Your numbers are completely indicative of why I found UK's system to be faulty. CR 41/EL 22? How does that help the DM run his game? More math is the last thing a high-level DM needs.

I think you have an intentional blind-spot here, especially as you appear to have been dodging the question. Go to the rules forum and search for one of the many archer threads, for example, to see the potential damage output of a 10th level archer and greatswordsman. Like here, for example. A fully equipped party with what is, in my experience, a normal spell load out, will handily deal with the scorpion. Multiple times, if need be...not without difficulty, but they can do it.

 

[jgbrowning]

("Or, as my party likes to say...Rast: the picture in the MM is ACTUAL SIZE.")

I managed to kill two of my 12th level party members with an attack of 5 rasts. Bad rolls.

joe b.

 

[HeavyG]

At 13th level (5 PCs party), we managed to go toe to toe with a colossal scorpion just fine. Actually, it was a giant crawfish that the DM used the colossal scorpion stats for, minus the stinger. So, that made the encounter easier but we were all immune to poison (as every party should be starting 11th level using Heroes Feast) and we were fighting underwater and basically had no real chance to avoid it because of cramped quarters, so I'd say it was at least a EL 12 encounter, maybe EL 13.

Anyway, one of our fighters was savaged pretty badly, so we had to use a Heal spell on him, but that is the extend of party resources used. The fight lasted a tiny bit over 2 rounds, that is, the crawfish only had time to act twice.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that colossal giant scorpions might be hard to beat at those levels, but they are not totally impossible encounters even when you *have* to face them on their term. Maybe they should be CR 12, but certainly not above that.

 

[Anubis]

Actually, by UK's system, Level 40 is what you'd need to be able to face one using only 20% of your resources. It would be a 50/50 encounter at about Level 20. At Level 11, it's a 95% chance for a TPK.

As for the validity of UK's system, well, it's not finalized yet, but it is in the final stages (i.e. playtesting). Granted animals and vermin have shown to be problematic a bit, but I'm positive these numbers are very close if not right on. For the system thus far, it's nigh flawless. It has properly rated everything I've actually playtested thus far.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, by UK's system, Level 40 is what you'd need to be able to face one using only 20% of your resources. It would be a 50/50 encounter at about Level 20. At Level 11, it's a 95% chance for a TPK.

50/50 encounter at level 20!?

"I cast Imprisonment."

Next?

-Hyp.

 

[satori01]

I remember the heady days of 1e when the only guide to monster toughness was the judgement of your wacked out DM, who generally looked at the XP awarded and made decisions there. Gargoyles at third level when the party has a single +1 dagger, ohh well deal with it.

That I think was the official philosophy of 1e, ohh well deal with it.
You know what it worked, even just eyeballing a creature.

I recently just had a player complain about the listed CR of a creature in a recent encounter. I like CRs, it is a nice GUIDE, but it is not a perfect system nor should it be, like momprpgs not all "cons" are created equal...

Oh well deal with it.

(Sorry a bit bitter about the in game occurence, sorry but I dont like my fantasy 100% newbie proof)

 

[LokiDR]

Actually, by UK's system, Level 40 is what you'd need to be able to face one using only 20% of your resources. It would be a 50/50 encounter at about Level 20. At Level 11, it's a 95% chance for a TPK.

As for the validity of UK's system, well, it's not finalized yet, but it is in the final stages (i.e. playtesting). Granted animals and vermin have shown to be problematic a bit, but I'm positive these numbers are very close if not right on. For the system thus far, it's nigh flawless. It has properly rated everything I've actually playtested thus far.

I'm glad you have found a measure of challanges that works for your specific group. There might be others who wish to use this system of house rules.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will going by the CR guidelines as given, and adjusting for our own campaigns. Your experience is so far away from the norm, you obviously need a different system. I'm glad you have found one.