Disappointed in 3.5 books

[Ranger REG]

The problem I have with 3.5 is that I don't WANT 3.5. I wanted either 3.1, I reprinting of the books with full errata and a few, I repeat, FEW changes to smoothe things out. Adding clunky weapon sizes, drastically reducing buff spell durations or adding Forgotten Realms specific Prestige Classes are not my idea of smoothing things out.

How is having one FR-specific PrC any different than the many GH-specific PrCs presented in the DMG?

Prestige Classes have always been a variant rule in Dungeons & Dragons. Only the DM can decide if he wants it in his game and can select one, some, or all of them.

As for the "3.5e" label, they don't want to use something like "3.1" as it might panic gamers to wonder if they'll be a "3.2" or "3.3" coming a year from now. They're going to make just one revision and that's it (assuming this revision will be accepted by the majority of the D&D gaming community ... after all, you cannot satisfy each and every one).

And they're adding major revisions as well as new material as added incentive to buy the books when they come out.

My feeling is that IF they were thinking of going this far with changes, why not go all the way, spend a couple more years and take us all the way to 4.0?

While I wholeheartedly agree with you, Wizards felt that they have enough information to warrant a revision, thanks in part by the real-time use of the internet. I mean imagine trying to discuss the rules with other gamers in other parts of the world using snail mail.

But it's kinda too late. I mean once they made a public announcement late last year, the wheel have already been set in motion. In fact, you would probably question their business practice if they later decided to postpone the revision after making that announcement.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Unless you're talking about the options books, there were no changes in the "2.5" core books.

2.5 is what I mean by the Player's Option books; the rip-off 2nd printing (or whatever it was) with the awful Easley covers (guy hacking down a door on PHB) and no interior changes is just 2.0 to me with new covers. I didn't buy 'em, just let my 2.0 PHB fall apart, then quit playing until 3.0...

 

[Darkness]

I don't think EN World's a good place to talk about distributing virus-infected faux D&D 3.5 .pds - whether on Kazaa or elsewhere.
I know you're probably not really planning to do it, but still.

- Darkness

 

[Belphanior]

PDFs are not executable files, nor do they contain macros. Hence, they can not contain viruses. This whole "I'll infect you with a virus!" deal got old when I was 12, and Kazaa has recently started on anti-virus measures anyway.


Iron Chef

So they can see the lies of man and the other races for what they are; so the orcs will not be cheated again from their rightful place in this world!

Example:
"If you let us go, oh mighty Grishnak, we will come back with many precious items to give you."

"Me Grishnak no impress by word of puny human. You lie! Me let human go, you human come back with pointy metal aim at Grishnak's heart! Grishnak say, word create lie, no trust word. Puny human die!"

The example you gave is in no way cleric-specific. Any orc could say that. The rationale you use here can be applied to any race and/or individual who has been, or will be, lied to. In other words: everybody.

Spot and listen are wisdom based, but it's clear that clerics should not have them as class skills. Are these "wise people" not supposed to be on the lookout for their god's enemies or something? And shouldn't they really have survival to better go and take their duty into the wilderness?
Sorry, but there is no reason why clerics would be exceptionally good at piercing lies. Remember, having something as a cross-class skill doesn't mean you suck at it and can never hope to pull it off. It just means you're not specialized in that area.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 3.5 books are a rip-off! You heard it here first!

Here's some changes I would have made:

Sorcerers get ALL charisma-based skills as class skills. They are a Charisma based class; to deny them the advantages of utilizing their high charisma for anything other than spellcasting is WRONG.

Clerics would get Sense Motive as a class skill. You know, so they can actually HELP their faithful and dispense insights to their allies. Duh!

Paladins get more cool powers so they aren't the weak sister to the fighter and cleric. Not sure what those are yet, but you know. Something cool.

Anyway, those are a couple ideas right off the top of my head.

Yes, all charisma based skills... why not make wizards good at finding traps too, seeing as it is based on INT, that primary wizard stat... Clerics with sense motive is an interesting change, nothing too unreasonable there.

And when you come up with 'something cool' you inspire less faith that WoTC, all I can say is that you can't rant on at them for making difficult decisions, and coming up with simple rules that are (for the most part) balanced when you want the Paladin to have 'something cool' as a power!

Yes the system probably lacks certain rules that many people play, and maybe some inclusions could have been made to streamline classes etc... but I think you have very little to back up your argument of being cheated. You got the books cheaper and quicker, so you didn't get to browse them - serves you right.

Anyway I shall collect mine (with any luck) later today (having browsed last week) and reserve judgement until I have a good sit down with them.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Remember, having something as a cross-class skill doesn't mean you suck at it and can never hope to pull it off. It just means you're not specialized in that area.

Yes, it does mean you suck at it no matter what. The numbers back me up on this.

Grishnak in the example I gave was a cleric of Gruumsh (I thought this was implied, though it was not specifically stated), so it was cleric specific, lol. Everybody else in his orc tribe thought letting the human go in exchange for treasure was a great idea, lol, but only the wisdom of Gruumsh allowed him to pierce the human's lies.

Paladins got Sense Motive in 3.5, you know. Why shouldn't clerics?

 

[Iron_Chef]

Okay, for the paladin, there's no reason to go up in it past level 6. Extra smites and extra remove disease are lame. Extra feats would be cool; not sure how to implement them, though. Paladin spell progression is too slow and starts too late. The paladin is really a poorly designed class, IMO. The blackguard isn't much better, but at least it's got a cool picture now.

 

[Belphanior]

Yes, it does mean you suck at it no matter what you do.

No it doesn't. My PCs have plenty of cross-class skills, and while they are not as good as the classes that are supposed to be experts at it (duh!), they do not suck at all.

Grishnak in the example I gave was a cleric of Gruumsh (I thought this was implied, though it was not specifically stated), so it was cleric specific, lol.

It was not cleric-specific because any orc could have said it. There is nothing that ties it to clerics specifically.

Everybody else in his orc tribe thought letting the human go in exchange for treasure was a great idea, lol, but only the wisdom of Gruumsh allowed him to pierce the human's lies.

How dumb are orcs in your campaign anyway...?
Regardless, Gruumsh had nothing to do with this. I'd give the credit to Grishnak's skill ranks, his wisdom score, and a good ol' D20.
If Gruumsh had helped him out, he would've given him...

A Guidance for an extra +1 bonus
A Zone of Truth
A Detect Lies

Hmm...
Isn't it interesting that clerics have anti-lie spells, similar to how they have spells to detect other things they can't do with skills alone (such as Find Traps and Locate Objects)? Maybe we should give them Search as well, seeing as how clerics sure do need to keep finding stuff all the time.
I've got a quote about a halfling cleric who lost his shoelaces to prove it too!

Paladins got Sense Motive in 3.5, you know. Why shouldn't clerics?

My first guess would be something like "because they're two different classes." What's the similarity here? They cast divine spells? Heck, let's give those druids and rangers their comeuppance as well.
My second guess would be: because paladins are meant to be championing good and ferret out corruption. Maybe that's why they also get Detect Evil at will?
Clerics are servants of a god, and nothing more. They do not need to take care of "the flock" or anything like that.


EDIT

Okay, for the paladin, there's no reason to go up in it past level 6.

Apart from the extra smites, the stronger smites, the extra remove diseases, the improved mount, the extra spells, the higher caster level, and the improved turn undead.
Oh, and roleplaying your character.

You're right, no reasons at all.

Extra smites and extra remove disease are lame.

This is an opinion without anything to substantiate it. I know a guy who thinks extra smites are too powerful, so I guess your opinion is not quite universally shared.

Extra feats would be cool; not sure how to implement them, though.

Similar to how you would give them "more cool powers" and could "make a better revision", I'm sure.

The blackguard isn't much better, but at least it's got a cool picture now.

At least you've got your priorities straight, right?



(Yes, I know there's some vitriol here.)

 

[Fiendish Dire Weasel]

I'd just like to throw in my sentiment towards the 3.5 books as being: I think they did too much, I don't think they did enough.

I would have much rather seen them either just make it an errata and rewriting rules that were clunky or confusing or spend extra time and do a more complete revision. Every time I read a developer say "We wanted to do somthing about X but didn't have the time" it really bugged me. To me that is like saying (and no offense to the developers) "There was more stuff that needed to be/could be fixed but we couldn't take the time to do it right.". I think they should have fixed everything (or almost everything) or just let a lot of stuff lay and just put in errata, clarifications and "Sage Advice" stuff to clarify what was there. Only adding or changing stuff that absolutley needed to be.

Now, I'm not attacking anyone who worked on the books, I know very well how deadlines and publishing gets in the way of a product sometimes all too well. This is just my opinion of what I have seen and what I would have like to seen. While I am still picking up 3.5 I must admit this is another of many small blows to my faith in buying WotC D&D books.

 

[Iron_Chef]

No it doesn't. My PCs have plenty of cross-class skills, and while they are not as good as the classes that are supposed to be experts at it (duh!), they do not suck at all.

Clerics are servants of a god, and nothing more. They do not need to take care of "the flock" or anything like that.

You are just a hack-n-slasher, aren't you? The role of a cleric is to champion his faith (by adventuring or performing great deeds/miracles), spread his god's word, tend to the needs of the faithful (adventuring companions or whoever) and to convert others, or barring the possibility of conversion, to destroy infidels, heretics and blasphemers. Clerics are not just guys in heavy armor casting spells grabbing treasure. They have a responsibility to a higher power, and to a whole heirarchy of church officials. Most clerics belong to a religion, right, and if you have a religion, you have to have somebody running this religion, or nothing gets done and it falls apart. I swear, you are just being contrary, or you're simply not grasping the concept of what a cleric is, and trying to say that only Christian priests should be insightful, while their D&D counterparts should be mace-wielding idiots.

You should try reading the cleric class description in the PHB to see the truth:

"...the gods, however, work mostly through their intermediaries--their clerics..." Do the gods want dummies representing them?

"...a good cleric, for example helps those in need. If, through noble acts, he can improve the reputation of his god and his temple, that's even better." A cleric who can't sense what is the right course of action is going to embarrass his deity/temple quick. Helping those in need means more than whacking some orc over the head. It means helping the faithful, whether through undertaking a quest (adventure or finding a lost sheep) or helping sort out their personal problems in a confessional setting.

"...clerics sometimes receive orders, or at least suggestions, from their ecclesiastical superiors, directing them to undertake missions for the church." If a cleric is part of a temple (and most are), then they must have some need to sense the motives of others, not just of their faithful, but also of their brethren: Church heirarchies are notorious hotbeds of politics. The high priest could be sending you on a suicide mission under a false pretext, after all. Your rival for the position of bishop could be plotting against you and only pretending he is dropping his candidacy.
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And nobody in my games takes ranks in cross-class skills unless they have to to meet some PrC requirement. They are just wasted skill points when you hardly get any per level.