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Disappointed in 4e

My big question on this thing is what about awareness? Speaking is a free action but listening and seeing are not. If the guy is trying to get up, but failing then he is aware of what is going on around him when a truly unconcious person would not. Sensory input is worth more than color.

Without the book to reference here, I cannot be certain that you are correct. If I understand LostSoul, he is saying that the game term "unconscious" doesn't mean "unconscious", isn't an attempt to simulate unconsciousness in game terms, and should have no additional baggage other than whatever is listed under the game effects of that condition.

I personally care for this, but he may well be right in terms of the rules themselves.....and in some ways, this may be more in keeping with Old School gaming than certainly my first glance made it seem.

EDIT: Please be aware that the above is just giving proper credit where I think credit goes. It is not saying that 4e is praiseworthy. No need to fear the end of the world yet. :lol:


RC
 
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I think the question you are trying to ask is, "Do you have any direct knowledge of the 4e rules?" and the answer to that question is "Yes, but it is certainly not perfect knowledge."
No, I'm just trying to understand why you seem unable to understand some arguments coming from the 4E fan side. I thought perhaps your lack of knowledge about the rules could be a contributing factor.

I cannot honestly say "I have never played 4E. Please bear that in mind before assuming that I'm some 4E fanboy." so, it is certainly as much knowledge as some others engaged in the same discussion. ;)
Who are you referring to? I hope it's not me, since (for instance) I know very well that the effects of the Unconscious condition are in 4E. I may not have played the game, but I have learned the rules quite well in my preparations to run it, which should be within the next month.

Sadly, there is a good reason I put that in my sig. In my "h8er of invalid arguments" mode, I have been frequently referred to as a 4E fanboy. I had to explain it several times, and I got tired of it and finally put it in my sig. Of course, I've had to explain it several times since then anyway. Take from that what you may.
 

This is, of course, correct....but then 3.x takes great pains to define things outside of their conventional meaning, and I have heard complaints about the term "nauseated" used to describe what happens in a swarm.

EDIT: In some EN World threads, I have seen re-writes of 4e rules that either change the rule to match the title, or change the title to match the rule, and I honestly find this to be a much, much better fit.


RC

Yeah it makes more sense when words are used consistently.

Bloodied but there is no blood or bleeding. :confused:

Were the rules edited for content and to run in the time allotted and to fit this screen? :eek:
 

No, I'm just trying to understand why you seem unable to understand some arguments coming from the 4E fan side. I thought perhaps your lack of knowledge about the rules could be a contributing factor.

It's possible.

Both reading the PHB and playing (not DMing) were experiences I found (very) off-putting. When I began work on my restructured game (RCFG), I intentionally distanced myself from 4e because RCFG is OGL-compliant, and I don't want any suggestion of non-OGL material to creep in.

Certainly, I haven't invested time or effort in 4e the way I have invested in every other edition since Holmes Basic.

Sadly, there is a good reason I put that in my sig. In my "h8er of invalid arguments" mode, I have been frequently referred to as a 4E fanboy. I had to explain it several times, and I got tired of it and finally put it in my sig. Of course, I've had to explain it several times since then anyway. Take from that what you may.

Internet reader bias.

"If I wrote that, it would mean........."

Probably unavoidable.


RC
 

I mean, really, what's to prevent me from taking LostSoul's example and changing it to "The fighter gets up, dances a little jig around the room, stubs his toes, and falls over where he was before. He seems to be winking at the elf."?
Because that would be silly. Which would be all right if you were going for a silly theme, but for standard fantasy adventure it's kind of out of genre.

Try this for a not-silly narrative of the same effect: There's a game on the Playstation 3 that had a demo I played in a store back when they released the system. It's a boxing game, and as you are pummelled by your opponent your vision starts to haze over, and redness seeps in from the edges, until finally you get a kind of tunnel vision that looks not unlike what happens in a migraine. I don't know how accurate this is as a representation of blunt trauma to the head, but it works for me as a decent depiction of why you're having trouble blocking and punching.

When you get hit enough times, you go down, and the ref starts to count. The visuals are blurry and indistinct, and the audio sounds like you're underwater. Getting back up feels like a real struggle, and when you do, you shake off some of the blurriness. Eventually, you don't get up at all, unless you win (which is extremely unlikely). I kind of imagine that instead of hearing the ref counting, and thereby being motivated to stand, a 4e character might hear the warlord shouting something extremely motivating and uplifting, that causes the character to choke it down, grit his teeth, and stand, perhaps almost automatically, as soldiers are said to do when they hear orders (whatever fits with the character). He shakes off some of the noise and fire in his head, and keeps fighting.

In other words, he was reduced to 0 HP, became unconscious, and then received an inspiring word. He was unconscious, which in this case meant that he was unable to act, face down, barely able to open his eyes, and his head was swimming with pain and blood pressure. He was just barely capable of hearing the warlord screaming at him to "move, damn it! Move!" before he slipped away completely.

This explanation of "unconscious" sounds just fine to me. I could also point out that I'm no stranger to unconsciousness, having gone through a period of fainting spells when I was a teenager. During these spells, I would be barely able to perceive what was going on around me, in a manner not unlike being awakened by someone talking to you while you're asleep. At first, you perceive the sound, but aren't exactly aware of it. Then you become aware of it, and then you remember that you've been hearing it for some time now. At this point, you've put together a thought coherent enough to rouse your brain into activity, and you wake up. Again, if the sound of talking is actually the warlord's practised banter helping you to find your way back to consciousness, it seems to fit both the rules and the descriptor just fine.
 

You know, I've been thinking about the boxing analogy for some time now, and I can see your point, but it just doesn't do it for me.

Of course, this assumes that your opponent isn't just trying to pummel you into submission. If you're just punch-drunk, stupid him for using the flat of his blade when he could have used the sharp parts.

And there are better mechanics, IMHO, for dealing with being stunned or losing morale.

This is, in my mind, is important: bit by bit, explaining 4e mechanics in terms of verisimilitude might be fine and dandy. But as those bits add up, what emerges has more in keeping with Monty Python & The Holy Grail than any Conan story REH ever wrote.

Each little bit of "You can explain X this way" lead up to a whole lot of explaining.... because the rules aren't written so that they flow logically from the conditions (one presumes) are being represented. And these aren't corner cases; they are potentially every single combat.

The fighter is loggy, and tries to get up, but can't. He is moments away from dying from his wounds. Then Rob gives him an Inspiring Word and he leaps to his feet. The wounds are still there, but the hit points get "talked back", and Rob never has to give a second thought to those wounds again.........

If the game is emulating a series of short, short stories, where events take place between play sessions, the DM can narrate that, no, Rob's wound did reopen and the pill Miracle Max gave Wesley did wear off.....Just not "on camera".

And that's fine.

In a sandbox game, that doesn't work, because the players (not the DM) decide when to rest and when to go, and the game rules need to give them a clear reason to rest.

(And, IMHO, the players get to narrate what their characters do or attempt to do within the confines of the game rules. The game rules themselves should offer some estoppal on "that would be silly". IMHO, the word "unconscious" in the rules is that estoppal....and it's being that estoppal is the reason that what the rules are meant to represent should not simply be ignored.)


RC
 




The fighter is loggy, and tries to get up, but can't. He is moments away from dying from his wounds. Then Rob gives him an Inspiring Word and he leaps to his feet. The wounds are still there, but the hit points get "talked back", and Rob never has to give a second thought to those wounds again........

But you're ignoring that fact that Rob also just lost a healing surge, and possibly lost a death save. If he's not giving either of those a second thought then he's in for a rude suprise. Once he has no more of those left no amount of "talking" will get him back on his feet. He be dead.
 

Into the Woods

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