Disarm and Trip...

[Asmor]

I've got a question about disarm and trip...

If I disarm someone, their weapon is now on the ground in their space. Picking it up is a move action which provokes an attack of opportunity. Can I use that attack of opportunity to disarm him so he never gets the weapon?

Similar question about trip. Can I attempt to trip someone with the Attack of Opportunity as they're getting up?

As long as we're on the subject, doesn't it seem a little ludicrous that a level 1 human fighter could get +10 to their disarm attempts (exotic weapon proficiency in Spiked Chain, Combat expertise (prereq) and improved disarm, that's +4 for the feat, +4 for a 2-handed weapon and +2 for the chain). I had my first game in a campaign yesterday where I made a fighter/rogue who does just that and I never missed a disarm attempt once, although I barely ever actually hit anything...

And howabout this; Level 2 fighter with the above feats, plus improved trip. +10 bonus to disarm opponent. When they try to pick up their weapon, +4 bonus to trip them and you get an attack, with +4 to hit since they're prone.

Add Combat Reflexes into the mix and keep in mind the spiked chain's 10' reach and things get pretty damn hairy.

 

[DanMcS]

I've got a question about disarm and trip...

If I disarm someone, their weapon is now on the ground in their space. Picking it up is a move action which provokes an attack of opportunity. Can I use that attack of opportunity to disarm him so he never gets the weapon?

Similar question about trip. Can I attempt to trip someone with the Attack of Opportunity as they're getting up?

No. The AoO goes off before they do the action. If you disarm someone, their weapon is on the ground. They try to pick it up, provoking an AoO. If you disarm them with that AoO, congratulations, you've just wasted your AoO, because their hands are empty, they haven't picked it up yet. Then they pick it up and beat you with it.

Similar logic applies to tripping someone who is already prone.

As long as we're on the subject, doesn't it seem a little ludicrous that a level 1 human fighter could get +10 to their disarm attempts (exotic weapon proficiency in Spiked Chain, Combat expertise (prereq) and improved disarm, that's +4 for the feat, +4 for a 2-handed weapon and +2 for the chain). I had my first game in a campaign yesterday where I made a fighter/rogue who does just that and I never missed a disarm attempt once, although I barely ever actually hit anything...

And howabout this; Level 2 fighter with the above feats, plus improved trip. +10 bonus to disarm opponent. When they try to pick up their weapon, +4 bonus to trip them and you get an attack, with +4 to hit since they're prone.

Add Combat Reflexes into the mix and keep in mind the spiked chain's 10' reach and things get pretty damn hairy.

Yes, the spiked chain is too good for an exotic weapon proficiency. It should be a super-exotic weapon, requiring two feats to be expended, for all the bonuses and tricks it gives you. Improved reach (5' and 10') + disarming + tripping + finessable = too good for one feat.

Your attack sequence isn't rediculous (disarm, trip on the AoO, followup attack), however, most opponents won't bother going for their weapon on the ground. They will draw a backup weapon and attack you, or some other non-AoO provoking action. You play your PCs to avoid AoOs unless necessary, right? So should the DM with NPC combatants. If you've been getting by too easy, that's not the fault of any particular feat or ability being overpowered.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Not quite clear..

I can't find it clearly stated, but since the AoO interupts the action, I would go with Yes in both cases..

Altho in the case of the Trip, I would grant the Prone character a +4 as he is 'otherwize more stable'...and he can burn his second action to get up anyway.
{incidently, the Temple of Elemental Evil computer game, which uses 3e rules, allows for the Tripping on AoO... thats about as official as I can muster right now}

Trip and Disarm are nasty.. but IMC they don't come up very often since most Players focus on killing the bad guys instead of making it easier to kill them... not sure why.

There are some simple answers to the Disarm happy PC.. Locked Gauntlets are the simplest.
For the Trip happy PC.. its a bit harder. You need a Trip happy NPC, or critters with 4 legs

As for the Spiked Chain.. I house ruled it into non-existance. The Sai provide the +4 to Disarm, but you have to be close enough to get hurt.

{edited addition}
Dan, I always thought that AoO *interupted* the action in question, so while the opponent gets his fingers on the hilt, you knock it away.. or some flavor text like that...

Carthain!! HELP!!!

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Sai provide the +4 to Disarm...

Yes, they do.

When you combine that with the -4 for being a Light weapon, you end up with +0.

You're better off disarming with a greatclub.

-Hyp.

 

[Kalem]

I can't find it clearly stated, but since the AoO interupts the action, I would go with Yes in both cases..

I agree with PS here. The PHB says: "An attack of opportunity 'interrupts' the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).'

So in the case given, that would mean that you could disarm or trip the person again using the AoO. But that's just how I interpret things...

c ya

 

[UltimaGabe]

So in the case given, that would mean that you could disarm or trip the person again using the AoO. But that's just how I interpret things...

c ya

But that's not how the game interperets things. According to the SRD, as well as the 3.5 FAQ, Attacks of Opportunity occur BEFORE the action that triggered them, and therefore it's impossible to use your AoO to trip someone just as they're standing up.

 

[Kalem]

Jupz, you're right. My mistake.

Here's a copy-paste from the 'Rules of the Game' about AoO.

"Resolve an attack of opportunity before you resolve the action that triggered it, not after. Sometimes, the attack of opportunity will prevent the triggering action (such as when the attack of opportunity proves lethal to a moving character). If someone tries something that provokes an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity happens first. Attacks of opportunity you make in response to a foe's spellcasting or use of a spell-like ability are an exception (see the Making an Attack of Opportunity section), as is moving into a space another creature occupies."

 

[Maldur]

Wouldn't trip-attacking on the AoO for getting up, not keep them on the floor? Something worth doing, imho.

 

[DanMcS]

Wouldn't trip-attacking on the AoO for getting up, not keep them on the floor? Something worth doing, imho.

No. The AoO happens before the action, as has been clearly stated in this thread.

1. They are prone.
2. They start to stand up, provoking an AoO.
3. You take your AoO as a trip; congratulations, you just tripped someone who was already prone.
4. They stand up.

Your AoO in no way prevents them from taking the action, unless you kill them with it or do something else to change their capabilities. They are still perfectly capable of standing up.

 

[Insight]

Yeah, you can't disarm someone who is trying to pick up their weapon, because the AoO occurs BEFORE the action (picking up the weapon) that provokes it. And you can't trip someone who is trying to stand because the AoO occurs BEFORE the action (trying to stand) that provokes it.

But, if you have both Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, you can be quite a pest. You can trip someone and then when they try to stand, use the AoO to disarm them (you get +4 on the opposed attack roll because they are prone), or vice versa. Better yet, you can disarm them with the free attack you get from Improved Trip.