Discontinuity: 3e and D&D

[fanboy2000]

I'll be better prepared for this argument after I finish reading Cratylus.

It's kind of interesting to see people compare 3e to AD&D 1e to support their argument. If internet message boards had been around, I'm sure we'd have had a lot more diaglo's claiming that AD&D was not D&D.

Remember kiddies, the changes from D&D 1974 White Box + Chainmail to AD&D 1e were vast also.

Of course, a lot of people number the editions AD&D 1e --> AD&D 2e --> D&D 3e
I number them D&D --> AD&D --> D&D 3e. Like Bonds or Doctors, it all depends on which one you started with.

 

[rogueattorney]

Someone up above said 1e D&D combat was simple if you ignored the weapon vs armor stuff and speed factors. Well, speed factors made initiative interesting in 2e. Read those rules. They are more complex than AoOs.

If you're referring to my post, I didn't say that 1e combat rules were simple. I said, at their heart, they were abstract, with the speed factors and weapons v. armor class being the exceptions mucking up the general rule. I'd never claim that the 1e combat rules were simple, far from it.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word tactical to contrast with abstract. I probably should have said "precise" or "concrete". In 3e where your character is at a particular moment is much more important, actual combat manuevers are important, each roll of the die in melee models a stroke of the sword, rounds are broken down into bare seconds. 1e is about having a general idea of what's going on in combat, 3e is about precision. Yes, both versions have a broad array of strategies that can be used, a fact about 1e that I think fans of both 1e and 3e miss.

I still maintain, however, that the above constitutes an intrinsic game design difference that results in a very different play experience.

R.A.

 

[rogueattorney]

Of course, a lot of people number the editions AD&D 1e --> AD&D 2e --> D&D 3e
I number them D&D --> AD&D --> D&D 3e. Like Bonds or Doctors, it all depends on which one you started with.

Third edition refers to the third edition of AD&D. If we're counting editions of D&D, there's been at least 4 prior to 3e. One could argue up to 7 or 8. As Diaglo is fond of saying, the third edition of D&D actually came out in 1979.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Nice April Fool's thread.

In short, I think it is entirely appropriate -- and, more importantly, intellectually honest -- to point out that 3e D&D is a fundamentally different game from earlier versions of D&D. It is a different game -- plain and simple. This is not necessarily a bad thing -- obviously lots of people (including most people who post here) prefer 3e over earlier versions of D&D. But to suggest otherwise is simply incorrect.

Different? You mean different rulebooks? Okay, the rulebooks are "different."

But all the hot air blowing around this thread doesn't change the fact that the game of D&D has always consisted of several people getting together to roll dice and play the parts of fictional characters.

Same game. Case closed.

 

[fanboy2000]

Third edition refers to the third edition of AD&D.

This is too good to pass-up. From WotC's old D&D faq:

Gygax had amassed a pile of campaign notes and new rules that he wished to add to the game. It was decided that a new edition of the game should be released, but instead of calling it a second edition and discontinuing the first, TSR launched Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.

I actually had a DM, back when 3rd edition first came out, that called OD&D 1st Edition and AD&D 1e 2nd edition.

If we're counting editions of D&D, there's been at least 4 prior to 3e. One could argue up to 7 or 8.

You have made my point far better than I did. Thanks.

 

[Breakdaddy]

and the ones who were driving knew how to make the car run properly.

I would actually prefer to make the pedestrians run properly.

 

[twofalls]

While I realize that I have only been playing this game for slightly over 26 years, and I have something like 28,000+ postes fewer than Crothian, please allow me to add my 2 cents....
Why the heck does it matter???
What difference does it make?
If you want to view the game as "fundamentally" different than 1e D&D, that's fine.
If you don't see the game that way, ok.
The games play the way they do independantly and regardless of each other.
I've enjoyed all the editions of the game and they all look quite similar to each other with various changes invovled (some big some small). The point is that it allows us to get together with our friends and have a good time in a creative and imaginative fashion.

Absolutly no offense intended to those who for some reason feel strongly on this subject, but why is it even relevent?
The idea of actually wasting energy getting upset because someone claims 3e isn't D&D... that just has to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard.

 

[Rasyr]

But all the hot air blowing around this thread doesn't change the fact that the game of D&D has always consisted of several people getting together to roll dice and play the parts of fictional characters.

Same game. Case closed.

Then, by that definition, Rolemaster, Paladium, Synnibarr, Champions, Traveller, etc., basically any and all games on the market are D&D....

 

[rogueattorney]

Then, by that definition, Rolemaster, Paladium, Synnibarr, Champions, Traveller, etc., basically any and all games on the market are D&D....

Yup. And there are those out there for whom pretty much any RPG = D&D.

I like to say there are 4 types of people when it comes to D&D editions...
1. The kind who have never heard of D&D and would think all this edition hub-bub is nonsense.
2. The kind who have heard of D&D, couldn't tell the difference between editions, and think that all of this edition hub-bub is nonsense.
3. The kind who plays D&D, know about the differences between editions, and think that all of this edition hub-bub is nonsense.
4. The kind who plays D&D, know about the differences between editions, and think it matters.

I'm well-aware that group number four is by far the smallest of the groups, and readily admit that I'm one of them. I really don't think it MATTERS in the grand scheme of things. War and disease and politics and stuff like that matters. This is just a game. But I do think it's fun to talk about.

R.A.

 

[Akrasia]

The insult is when that advice is taken further. Instead of, "Forget your old rules, remember your old flavor," several posters insisted "It ain't D&D no more." In other words, "Sorry, guys, you may *say* that you're playing D&D, but you aren't. You're lying to yourselves. We, your superiors, are in fact playing the only true D&D game. All else is but pale imitation."

If we are referring to the same thread, it should be noted that none of the posters said anything like this (though Diaglo may have implied it). Indeed, some of the posters who gave this advice were very much pro-3e (e.g. Crothian).

I really, really like your version of revisionist history. Can I borrow some of whatever crack-based derivative you were smoking when you posted this?

Sure! It is good stuff.