Discussion: Multiple PCs and level curve

[ScorpiusRisk]

I wanted to respond to covaithe's ideas of rewarding characters created from retired XP. However, as he said, it was off topic for the thread.

People are reluctant to retire a level N character and create one at level N-M, because those M levels represent a substantial investment of time. Any set of rules that would incentivize players to give up that time investment, would have to reward them with something of comparable value.

Idea 1: Heirloom items. In Torchlight, if you retire a mid-to-high level character to create a new one, the new character gets effectively a free skill rank, plus one of the magic items from the old character. What if we did it so that if you create a new character by retiring a higher level one, you get one "heirloom" item that's the same level as the old character's highest level item, plus maybe an extra background or trained skill or something. Possibly even an extra feat. The heirloom item would not be considered part of your character's wealth, so you'd be significantly richer than other characters of your level, up until you got to around the same level as where you retired from.
Pros: Gives the new character a significant boost, without breaking the game (IMO).
Cons: Might not be enough of a boost to compensate players for the loss of level. Not repeatable; retiring a second time doesn't give you any real benefit, so it just postpones the problem again.

Idea 2: When you retire a character to create a new PC at level 1, you can transfer the xp you lost to one of your other characters. I could retire Ikni (3rd, 2250 xp) to bump Quagmire from 4th (3750) to 5th (5500+500 left over).
Pros: Strong incentive to retire and start over at level 1; people would probably actually do it if this were possible. Would really go a long ways towards encouraging a wide spread of levels. Repeatable; people could take advantage of this idea over and over again without "wasting" xp.
Cons: Some people could get a big (one-time) boost in xp. Encourages throwaway characters built just to feed xp to someone else. More character turnover ==> more character reviews to do.

The second idea frightens me more than a little, but I think it will take something like that to get people to start over at level 1 alongside new players.

Anyway, enough of that. This is horribly off-topic.

Idea 1: Heirloom Item. I love the idea behind this, and I hate the mechanics. Some items not only grant a daily power but provide a boost worth a feat easily. I think that this could easily be abused. It also brings images to mind of angry mobs shouting about wealth per level.

Idea 2: I like this allot better. The sacrifice is clear and the gain not more unbalancing than DM credits.

 

[LadyLaw]

I like the second idea better as well. I think it would create less - "ill will" isn't the right phrase but I can't think of a better one - in regards to the bonus you get out of it. Like Scorpius said, it's not really much different from DM Credits.

I think something else to consider here is adding a 3rd option to retirement. According to the charter you have 2 options for replacing that character: making a new character at 1 level lower than the old, or making a new character at the same level as the old, but sacrificing a magic item. There is no option that really fits retiring a 5th level PC in favor of a new level 1 PC.

Since part of the issue here is to address having a wider gap in levels and also to ensure that there will be characters to adventure with newbies, it might be good to come up with a good reward system for retiring a higher level character and starting fresh at 1 again.

In that case, I think awarding the lost EXP to another PC would be a bit overpowering, but perhaps it could be a percentage, or something else could be worked out. I do like the idea of extra skills or background slots on a new character as a reward. It's a little less unbalancing than throwing in high level magic items.

 

[Velmont]

I don't want to see someone with 3 characters, but 2 are there only to give extra XP to third, so the second idea don't attract me too much.

 

[Mezegis]

One problem with picking a singular option for trying to push people towards character retirement is that everyone is motivated by something different. For some people, it's all about XP, others might want treasure and gold, and still more people might only care about the story being told.

I think the 2nd option is generally better than awarding a level 1 new gear. What if someone retires a lvl 8 with an N+4 item level weapon. Suddenly the level 1 is weilding something N+12? That +3 weapon of nuttiness quickly tilts any balance of power quite severely.

I understand Velmont's wariness of it, but it really is quite similar to DM credits. An option could be to have the PC retired produce PC credits, which could be used along a similar lines as DM ones, based on level of what is retired, time played, etc... There would actually be diminishing returnes on pumping XP into one character as eventually you will run out of other PC's to party with. What's the point on being lvl 9 when everyone else is 5 or lower.

 

[renau1g]

But if they do that Velmont their PC won't have anyone else to adventure with. Consider if I did that with my non-Murphy PC's. Murphy would be level 9 after current adventures are done, 10-11 if I use DM credits. Looking at the approved PC's list, the highest PC's are Callen & Kama'zer at 6. He'd be pretty lonely waiting in the tavern for the rest to catch up. Now... if E13 did that he could get Kama up to about 8th (maybe higher with credits). Still that would put us way ahead of everyone else and we'd sit on our hands for a few months or a year.

I think it's less of a problem. Also, if it becomes abusive the judges can always step in.

Stupid Mezegis ninja'ing me

 

[Mezegis]

...silly renau1g for typing so slowly...
lol

 

[evilbob]

I don't want to see someone with 3 characters, but 2 are there only to give extra XP to third, so the second idea don't attract me too much.

Just a thought: what is the problem with this? You're still encouraging low-level play, right?

 

[CaBaNa]

Now that Enemies Among Us is done, I'm thinking of retiring Veruzak. I'm interested in new retirement options, as option A and B kind of suck are less than desirable at second level...

 

[Velmont]

To see some people who would make a second or third PC just to get XP for there first without committing themselves to those PC. That would mean they don't necessarily bother to have a good roleplay, might have slower post rate with those PC, ect... In other word, I don't want somebody to have another character just to gain XP without having him to actually give a minimum of quality of play with his character,

 

[evilbob]

To see some people who would make a second or third PC just to get XP for there first without committing themselves to those PC. That would mean they don't necessarily bother to have a good roleplay, might have slower post rate with those PC, ect... In other word, I don't want somebody to have another character just to gain XP without having him to actually give a minimum of quality of play with his character,

Right. I guess I'm still wondering: is that really possible? I mean, playing a character and even just getting to level 2 takes months. You can't really "not try" or else you'd be hurting your own XP machine. And you're still using up valuable PC "slots" of your own.

I guess it just doesn't seem that plausible to me that someone would slack off on a feeder PC - especially since it would be extremely obvious that this is what you were doing with that character. And ultimately it still means there's always a level 1 guy around, which is the point of all this - right?


Edit: besides, it seems like the "feeder" problem would take care of itself: at some point, there's no reason to continue to level yourself that way, because no one else is that high of a level and you'll just be waiting around and not playing.

Also, taking a level 1 to level 2 should take about the same amount of time as taking a level 5 to level 6, right? Except 1-> 2 and then retiring to feed a level 5 is WAY less efficient - that's not going to make much difference to the level 5 guy at all. The only way it would work well is to level up a LOT - and that means you've got to really DRIVE your games, not be passive in them!