Discussion on iterative attacks

[Vegepygmy]

Probably my biggest quibble with 3.x was the introduction of so many cool combat options that anyone could try, and then making it so that only an idiot would do so without having the requisite feat.

I don't agree with this at all. I use maneuvers like Disarm, Bull Rush, and Trip all the time, and I rarely have the "Improved X" feat. You just have to understand when your target is vulnerable (for example, when they don't have a weapon to threaten you with, or when they've already used their attack of opportunity on someone else) and/or when it is worth the risk (yeah, he may hit me with an attack of opportunity, but he's still going over the edge of this cliff).

 

[Vegepygmy]

It's a full round to full-attack, meaning you are rooted in place, also meaning that if you move, you are limited to 1 single attack for crappy damage (compared to a mage firing off a 1-win spell as a standard action).

I believe the dislike is more that the fighter is reliant on the full-attack action for the bulk of his damage output. If he can get it off, it rocks. When he can't, it just sucks.

As opposed to, say, "a mage firing off a 1-win spell," who has to beat spell resistance and/or a saving throw? If he can get past those, it rocks. When he can't, it just sucks. And of course, the fighter can keep trying all day long, unlike the wizard.

Are they equal? No, they're not, because they're different. But that doesn't mean one is better than the other. In some situations, the wizard will excel. In others, the fighter. For me, that's a feature, not a bug. YMMV.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Had a big post typed up and then lost it. But that's okay because it boiled down to just this:

"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true." - Spock

Clearly I'm not alone in finding that having piles of iterative attacks is not all it's cracked up to be. It drags out the game with complication, calculation and the stat inflation needed to compensate for them.

 

[Dandu]

As opposed to, say, "a mage firing off a 1-win spell," who has to beat spell resistance and/or a saving throw? If he can get past those, it rocks. When he can't, it just sucks.

Ignoring the substantial amount of spells that are SR: No and offer no saving throws.

And of course, the fighter can keep trying all day long, unlike the wizard.

Yeah, right up until he runs out of HP.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Ignoring the substantial amount of spells that are SR: No and offer no saving throws.

And how many of those are the "1-win" type being discussed?

That's right, virtually none.

Yeah, right up until he runs out of HP.

It's a lot easier to recover HP than it is to recover Spells Per Day.

 

[Dandu]

And how many of those are the "1-win" type being discussed?

That's right, virtually none.

Sleet Storm. Solid Fog. Black Tentacles. Wall of Stone. Reverse Gravity. Force Cage. Polymorph. Polymorph Any Object. Shapechange. Gate.

It's a lot easier to recover HP than it is to recover Spells Per Day.

Really? I was under the impression that you recovered 100% of your spells per day after resting for a night, while you only healed 1 hit point per two character levels.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sleet Storm. Solid Fog. Black Tentacles. Wall of Stone. Reverse Gravity. Force Cage. Polymorph. Polymorph Any Object. Shapechange. Gate.

-Helps divide and conquer, but isn't instant win. A lot of times IME it actualyl ends up being an annoyance to the party after the first 2 rounds and needs to be dismissed.
-Pretty nasty, yeah. Still, one low level spell dissipates it.
-Is good for a few levels, then has to low a grapple bonus and too many monsters have get out free cards.
-Most DMs give a save if you're trapping someone in it. Otherwise, another divide and conquer, not instant win.
-Used offensely, gives a save. Used defensively...why not just fly?
-You actually want to pay for that?! And by level 13-14 too many things have teleport, or IH Surge, or other stuff to make it useless.
-I'm not arguing Polymorph with you again, but I just think it's a very very good buff spell.
-Yeah, that's broken. But also 8th level.
-Ditto, except 9th level.
-Definitely needs a major re-write to avoid abuse. Also, 9th level.

Really? I was under the impression that you recovered 100% of your spells per day after resting for a night, while you only healed 1 hit point per two character levels.

I've yet to see a "wand of cure light spell slots."

 

[Dandu]

-Helps divide and conquer, but isn't instant win. A lot of times IME it actualyl ends up being an annoyance to the party after the first 2 rounds and needs to be dismissed.
-Pretty nasty, yeah. Still, one low level spell dissipates it.
-Is good for a few levels, then has to low a grapple bonus and too many monsters have get out free cards.
-Most DMs give a save if you're trapping someone in it. Otherwise, another divide and conquer, not instant win.
-Used offensely, gives a save. Used defensively...why not just fly?
-You actually want to pay for that?! And by level 13-14 too many things have teleport, or IH Surge, or other stuff to make it useless.
-I'm not arguing Polymorph with you again, but I just think it's a very very good buff spell.
-Yeah, that's broken. But also 8th level.
-Ditto, except 9th level.
-Definitely needs a major re-write to avoid abuse. Also, 9th level.

We can probably agree that, even if they aren't encounter enders, they're pretty strong spells that do not offer SR or saves and that a wizard gets to unleash them as a standard action, which is more powerful than what the fighter gets to do on his standard action.

Reverse Gravity does not offer a save, btw.

Also, I used the monster filter on the D20 SRD for level 13-14 enemies to see how they'd do vs a force cage. 7 out of 21 monsters don't have any way of dealing with it. 3 have to use Plane Shift. 4 have access to greater teleport. The rest are dragons, which can't cast Dimension Door, but can use a wand of it.

I've yet to see a "wand of cure light spell slots."

Rary's Meumonic Enhancer?

Well, that's a bit expensive. How about scribing scrolls? Or a Heward's Fortifying Bedroll (3,000 go) which lets you regain all spells with 2 hours of rest once every 3 days?

 

[Road_Runner]

-
-You actually want to pay for that?! And by level 13-14 too many things have teleport, or IH Surge, or other stuff to make it useless.

Ok, I'm assuming IH Surge=Iron Heart Surge, lvl 3 warblade ability, and you're talking about using it to escape from Forcecage????


I'm really confused, (btw I happen to be a lvl 10 warblade) after reading the unofficial errata (The Unofficial Official Errata - Drammel's Notes) I was under the impression if you were under the effect of some magical condition (like charm person *cough* ) or bestow curse it would remove it. I was surprised to read it also destroyed antimagic fields, but I don't understand how it removed something that is surrounding you, not directly affecting you like a forcecage. Is there some list somewhere that explain this?

 

[Dandu]

IHS should not counter Force Cage. Teleportation, Rods of Cancellation, or something similar do, but not IHS.

Basically IHS is a poorly worded ability that people stretch to get rid of things like antimagic fields. It really shouldn't do anything of the sort.