Discussions on d20 supers...

[1StrangeFellow]

There were a lot of discussions on these boards about the problems involved in making a d20 supers game that could reflect the entire genre of comic books a while back (ie a system that could be used to create and play the Hulk and the Silver Surfer (high power), as well as Daredevil and Black Widow (low power)). Now that the search engine for the boards is disabled, I was wondering if someone could point me to some of those discussions (if there are any still around or they are archived)?

You see, I'm interested in starting up a game using the Hero System and the group's other DM (who does D&D) is insisting that we should just be able to do d20 supers. I'm having a hard time explaining the difficulties we discussed so long ago on these boards to him. He thinks the other players will have a hard time learning a new system (we tell them what to roll when they play d20, anyway - or how far they can move, what they can do, etc - it's not like they are d20 experts or anything).

Yes, there are a few d20 games that do supers, but none of them really reflect the entire genre of comic books and have the adaptability in creating unique powers that Hero System does, from what I've seen. It would help me state my case a lot more if I could show him those old discussions (or new ones on the same topic).

 

[hong]

This topic (how good is d20 for supers) got thrashed to death a few weeks back. This is one of the threads:

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9658

There were others, but I can't find them anymore. I'll repeat what I said before, though.

There's no reason why d20 can't do supers as well as any other ruleset. It just depends on what you want out of your game. A lot of supers fans, however, seem to believe that D&D/d20 won't work when it comes to supers. I think this is an outgrowth of the rulesets that currently dominate the genre. These rulesets tend to take the "gearhead" approach, of using a toolkit of components to build a character's powers. You can think of it as being a bit like LEGO.

Since these rulesets are aimed at gearheads, then naturally gearheads will like them. Meanwhile, other gamers who may not be gearheads will find the rules not to their liking. They'll tend to drift away from the supers genre to other genres where gearhead rules aren't as dominant.

A side-effect of all this is that when it comes to debates about where the genre is heading, most of the voices that will be heard will be those of gearheads. Any gamers who aren't gearheads probably gave up on supers long ago, and so are unlikely to take notice of debates about the genre.

What you are saying, really, is that D&D/d20 is a poor ruleset for emulating the HERO system. This is probably true enough. Whether it's a poor ruleset for supers is something else entirely.

 

[Zhure]

I agree with hong*. I think super d20 can be done, but I haven't seen it implemented well and haven't figured out how to do it well.

A good way to emulate high supers (superman) against low supers (batman) might be in the d12 brick vs the d4 investigator class. I don't know.

Maybe the answer is to have certain races as templates. Kryptonians would be +10 ECL or whatever and have a whole package of abilities, prelaid out. This is contrary to the way most supers do things, so it'll be counterintuitive.

For a "Legion of Superheroes" game, you'd have to have a bunch of races with their ECLs precalculated and go in realizing that the 1st level Fighter/Kryptonian (Superboy) will probably beat the tar out of the 11th level Monk/Human (Karate Kid).


Hope that helps inspire some ideas,
Greg

*IYKWIM, AITYD

 

[Turlogh]

With 6 or 7 different companies doing a superhero game for d20 it looks like many people think it can be done.

What I wonder is how they're doing it and if any will be remotely compatible.
With d20 there are many ways that the superpowers/abilities could be gained: races, classes, super feats, skills, templates and probably others. I imagine it will be some combination of these to generate the feel of comic book heros. Hopefully from the street level (Punisher) to godlike (The Mighty Thor) and possibly even cosmic levels. I also would like to see the game have suggestions for the DM on running a game that has a disparity of powers in one group (ie the Justice League- Batman is definitely not at the level of power that Superman or Wonder Woman but they can all play nice in the comics and TV shows).

I am looking forward to see whats being done and hoping for some good well thought out and extremely playable games.

 

[Black Omega]

While I won't discount that a good d20 Superheros game can be done, my suspicion is that at least a few of the companies doing d20 supers are doing it because it's a boom market. There have been recently superhero movies like Xmen and Blade, to go along with many upcoming movies, Xmen II, Hulk, etc. Add in that Hero System 5th ed has been selling very well and the attraction of drawing in the d20 crowd. There are a few good people working on d20 projects so I'd not be surprised if someone comes up with a workable d20 supers system.

I have no idea what Hong really means about Gearheads. I like Hero System best symply because it's flexible. I can do any genre I want from one book. At the same time I find DnD excellent for certain types of campaigns. Both systems have their own use.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

hong---

I just read that entire 9 page thread. I have never played Heroes. I think my head has turned to mush...bluuuhhhhhhh...

 

[Tonguez]

go in realizing that the 1st level Fighter/Kryptonian (Superboy) will probably beat the tar out of the 11th level Monk/Human (Karate Kid).

Well actually according to the 'book' the Karate Kid was accepted into the Legion because Superman could NOT beat the tar out of him (He kept dodging and folding with the blows and eventually it came to a stand still)

Personally I was thinking about the Super genre and going for a classless system based on Feats.

adapting straight from DnD we go thus

Okay so Everyone gets (say at least) 10 feats +1 per level
Feats are used to build characters and applied to Power Feats (on creation only) PS all Mundane Feats would stack in this system too

Power Feats include
Ability mod multipliers (eg 4 Str feats = Str modX4 so with Str 16 (+3) becomes +12 on Str checks)

Super powers = Spells
Feat per level + feat per spell
(eg the Fly ability (Fly spell) would cost 4 feats (level 3 + spell)

Weapon & Attack Bonus
BAb is calculted per weapon (with each weapon being a feat) NOT for a class of weapons (eg Martial/Exotic) these weapons can include Unarmed attacks (eg Punch) and Power attacks (eg Optic Blast). This reflects two things - first in 'modern' settings people become skilled in specific weapons not all types and second a Power attack as a 'Signature' item needs its own development.

Power Levels
The mixed power levels is a problem but is really more of an issue for the DM - who needs to cater to all PCs. The other thing is by making 'Power Feats' more costly those who do not take them gain a greater variety of 'mundane' abilities (including BAb)with which to compete.

 

[Psion]

Well, it may be a judgement call about your group deciding whether your group is flexible to learning new games.

I can say, though, that I don't think there is yet a d20 supers game that I would rather play than HERO. I just picked up HERO 5, and it is a great ruleset. AFAIAK, the only d20 supers games actually out are Foundation and a PDF product call vigilance. I wouldn't use either one befor champs/hero or Blood of Heroes, even considering the foibles of learning a new system.

Now one of the systems coming out (Green Ronin's Mutants & Masterminds, GOO's d20 Silver Age Sentinels, Natural 20's d20 supers), one might compelling enough to play, but how long are you willing to wait?

 

[hong]

Personally, I don't think that this book is likely to make a drop in the bucket as far as people who are already convinced D&D is evil.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that gearheads think D&D is evil, but anything's possible, I guess.

 

[Psion]

Okay, Hong obviously replied before I realized I replied to the BoVD thread in the wrong window...