Discussions on d20 supers...

[Victim]

I recently bought the new HERO edition and I really like the system.

It doesn't seem so much as a gearhead game as one that rewards gearheads. I could have made character right after reading the rules that would pretty much be able to do what I wanted. I doubt that the character would have been very effective.

However, DnD is much the same, especially if you start at higher levels to reflect more equivalent character power levels. Just look at the Smackdown thread for evidence, or all the people that ask for character building advice. It's just harder to make a completely ineffective because lots of things are given out automatically. However, at higher levels when a new character would have to deal with lots of wealth, people could just as easily be overwhlemed by the options or make crappy choices.

I think that just plain old high level DnD characters would make good superheroes, if you change descriptions and give options for making things normally on magic items innnate.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Under D20 would Superman have a 486543 Strength or something along those lines. Just think of the BAB!

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I'm a big fan of Big Blue, so bear with the fanboy stuff...

I think people have the pre-Crisis Superman in mind with "invulnerability but with 1 hit die" approach. Supes has been in many situations where his powers are diminished, and has proven to be a capable warrior. Take when he came back from the dead, and has no superpowers; he still was a not-inconsiderable fighter. Or, instances where he is far from Earth, like on Apokolips. He still holds more than his own, without his powers, or with them considerably diminished. He may not be as good a streetfighter as Batman, but he has learned from experience against guys that are as invulnerable (or nearly so) as he is - Lobo and Doomsday are good examples.

Sorry; had to get it out of my system.

Anyway, has anyone thought about using Deities & Demigods as sort of a "test bed" for d20 supers? I mean, Thor is in there; has anyone compared/contrasted him with the Marvel comics Thor? Could the DDG version simulate that character? If not, what would need to be changed? Just some thoughts...

 

[Grendel]

that is why a power framework is needed. I have been considering d20 supers game for some time. Super Strength would be on a power schedule (similar to spell lists) and would add +2 on all STR checks and double carrying capacies and add 1d6 damage to attacks, but would otherwise not affect BAB.

This is done for several reasons, first, to make sure that a super STR character is not a melee wrecking machine, and second to seperate Ability Scores and Super Powers. A 10th level brick character with an 18 str isn't going be significantly more powerful than a 10th level brick with a 16 str. And finally these characters need to be dropped into any other d20 eviornment and interact with the CR's on an expected level. However there is one important differnece, EPIC level abilities are REQUIREMENT for a truely superheroic game. Infact mose d20 supers would probably start at EPIC level (20+) but rules for scaling them down to "mortal" levels are important for integration into lower powered games. Basically a 10th level hero needs to be on par with 10th level Fighter, and a 10th level super hero should be on par with a 10th level Epic character (or deity character perhaps) to make the d20 system truely a univeral system.

 

[hong]

However there is one important differnece, EPIC level abilities are REQUIREMENT for a truely superheroic game. Infact mose d20 supers would probably start at EPIC level (20+) but rules for scaling them down to "mortal" levels are important for integration into lower powered games.

Rot. A D&D game past 12th level or so is, for all intents and purposes, a supers game already.

 

[Victim]

I agree with Hong. 12th level characters teleport, fly, can survive most mundane things - like lava baths and terminal velocity falls along with wimpy gunfire. About the only thing they don't have is car lifting strength, but as others have pointed out, super hero strength helps lifting mostly.

The 12th level cleric I've been playing could lift up a car, throw powrful energy attacks, fight, survive almost anything, heal, etc. I think he could handle Cyclops, especially if Pro Elements or SR would work.

 

[WizarDru]

Or, instances where he is far from Earth, like on Apokolips. He still holds more than his own, without his powers, or with them considerably diminished. He may not be as good a streetfighter as Batman, but he has learned from experience against guys that are as invulnerable (or nearly so) as he is - Lobo and Doomsday are good examples.

Sorry; had to get it out of my system.

By all means.

The point I was trying to make (and took a little too far, I admit) was that on a point-cost comparison, they're equal, in the same way a 20th level rogue, fighter or wizard are equivalent. In their own environments, each is king. Post-'86 Supes is certainly no slouch in combat, it's true. But it's his spirit which keeps him going, more than his physical prowess, IMHO. He never gives up. (see Suneater event, for example...no powers doesn't equal surrender). And there was that whole 'warworld' thing.

I guess my point is that d20 can be mutated to match the needs of a supers system...but I don't see that it would scale with traditional D&D. By it's very nature, Supers requires combat that is a heck of lot less deadly than it's D&D counterpart. People throw ocean liners at each other, hit each other with raw plasma, are exposed to rips in the fabric of space-time and walk away from it.

Dieties and Demigods might be a good starting point, but as it is, even one level of divinity makes you both more powerful and less powerful than the average superhero, in some aspects. I think it can be done, with some work, but the core materials currently available wouldn't do it.

 

[RangerWickett]

Under D20 would Superman have a 486543 Strength or something along those lines. Just think of the BAB!

I think you're quite a bit off with that number. This is a really rough estimate, but that amounts to a lifting capacity of:

10^29293 pounds.

As an example of how huge that number is, the universe is about 10^17 seconds old. So if I tried to type 10^29293 out as an actual number, it would take me several gajillion times the length of the universe to finish typing it.

Jupiter has a mass of somewhere between 10^18 and 10^22. Your Superman could move, . . . oh, the entire universe. With lots of strength left to spare.

So no, Superman is not that strong. If we assume that, at his best, he can move planet Earth 10^16 pounds. Superman would thus have a Strength of slightly less than 300. According to the PHB, a strength of 10 can lift 100 lbs., and for every 10 points you go above that, you quadruple the lifting weight. x4 at Str 20, x16 at 30 Str, etc. At Strength 300, a person could lift 2.8 x10^20 pounds. About enough for Jupiter.

Any Supers system that allows for Strengths above 300 is kidding itself. How much Strength do the gods in Deities and Demigods have?

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Well, pre-Crisis Supes could destroy the planet by flying into it; post-Crisis he couldn't. He's not strong enough to move the planet now, either, unless something has changed lately (I haven't been able to keep up as much as I'd like). Still, I'd give him at least Str55 (he's at least as strong as Hercules).

 

[Black Omega]

Some interesting discussions here. Hmm..Godlike is d20? I looked it over and really wasn't that impressed, but I didn't look at the rule mechanics much.

Classless systems are harder on the DM because he won't be able to generate encounters quickly. He has to hand-craft each one, or develop his own "monster manual" worth of foes, which in turn takes away from the time he gets to spend working on plotlines. It's the whole reason I've pretty much given up on the superheroic genre as a game. It's great to play in but sucks to run.

This part I'd have to disagree with. I dislike generating encounters quicklyin DnD because all you have to go from is CR and that's not always a good indicator of how challenging an encounter is. For Hero System designing an encounter on the fly is a breeze. Now, I've run Hero System much more than DnD and that accounts for some of that. But I really enjoy running Hero System. I love the flexibility and freedom. I always end up feeling confined in DnD, even running it.