Discussions on d20 supers...

[WizarDru]

I can say, though, that I don't think there is yet a d20 supers game that I would rather play than HERO. I just picked up HERO 5, and it is a great ruleset. AFAIAK, the only d20 supers games actually out are Foundation and a PDF product call vigilance. I wouldn't use either one befor champs/hero or Blood of Heroes, even considering the foibles of learning a new system.

Godlike is a d20 Superhero system. If it weren't specifically focused on superheroes during World War II, I'd be more interested in it.

I personally would like to see a d20 Superheroes game for the same reason that I used GURPS for a superheroes game for a decade...many of my players don't want to have to keep changing RPGs to play different genres and I don't want to have memorize multiple RPGs to run them.

I know that Hero is flexible and well-suited to superheroes...it was designed for that, after all. However, unless Hero/Champions has changed dramatically from the last time I saw it, it's a gearhead game, as Hong rightfully describes it, IMHO. Half of the game is designed around character creation, and it requires a fairly detailed understanding of the system to get a desired result. Very rewarding for those who want to spend the time learning the system in and out, very off-putting for those who just want to make a character and go.

I personally see a d20 supers game taking more of the CoC approach to classes...some generic class templates (offensive, defensive, absorber, brick, etc) with most of the class-based progression fixed in.

And for reference: Batman is NOT a low-powered character. A multi-billionaire with a multi-national corporation at his beck-and-call, a master of multiple martial arts, master inventor/gadegeteer, genius-level detective, able to summon a half-dozen super-followers and a brilliant tactician. Heat vision, no...but he can beat Superman, given sufficient preparation. d4, my butt. d4 characters don't fight Killer Croc.

 

[NeuroZombie]

I have a d20 Supers games on my site that was a VERY early draft of super rules. It uses spells as powers as Tonguez mentioned above. It is not complete, but you guys may want to check it out, at least for ideas. My link is in the sig and profile if your interested. It is called The C.O.R.E. Directive

 

[Zhure]

And for reference: Batman is NOT a low-powered character. A multi-billionaire with a multi-national corporation at his beck-and-call, a master of multiple martial arts, master inventor/gadegeteer, genius-level detective, able to summon a half-dozen super-followers and a brilliant tactician. Heat vision, no...but he can beat Superman, given sufficient preparation. d4, my butt. d4 characters don't fight Killer Croc.

A 20th level d4 character will have lots of wealth and 8 Feats -- even a commoner. He could probably beat a 6 HD monster. It all depends on the scale involved. I never said Batman was a commoner.

Greg

 

[Zhure]

Well actually according to the 'book' the Karate Kid was accepted into the Legion because Superman could NOT beat the tar out of him (He kept dodging and folding with the blows and eventually it came to a stand still)

Heh. I know, that's why I chose that example, to illustrate how such a system won't reflect the source material. I've always maintained that Superboy held back. He can move faster than the speed of light, so Karate Kid dodging just isn't terribly plausible.

In many cases, games won't reflect source material because they're different forms of expression.

Personally I was thinking about the Super genre and going for a classless system based on Feats.

Classless systems are harder on the DM because he won't be able to generate encounters quickly. He has to hand-craft each one, or develop his own "monster manual" worth of foes, which in turn takes away from the time he gets to spend working on plotlines. It's the whole reason I've pretty much given up on the superheroic genre as a game. It's great to play in but sucks to run.

Now if you could incorporate a classed system for a super game, it might be worthwhile, as random generation becomes practical and software could be developed for it. Random generation of a point-based system tends to be really difficult to implement, at least in my experience.

adapting straight from DnD we go thus

Okay so Everyone gets (say at least) 10 feats +1 per level
Feats are used to build characters and applied to Power Feats (on creation only) PS all Mundane Feats would stack in this system too

I'd really prefer a system that includes the same system for building normals and superheroes without using different rules. I think it'd be far easier to just declare all starting heroes to be "10th level" or whatever was decided at character generation.

Power Feats include
Ability mod multipliers (eg 4 Str feats = Str modX4 so with Str 16 (+3) becomes +12 on Str checks)

I think it would work better to have some "Mega" feats, one for each stat. Any character who took "Mega Strength" means they'd get x10 lift. Their to hit and damage adjustments would remain the same, just for simplicity. That way you could easily be really really really strong, but it wouldn't mean you'd need an outlandish strength. If you took the Mega-STR route, your STR would be 10 and you could lift 10x what a normal STR 10 gives you, but you'd get a +10 to hit and damage. Mega-STR might also grant a +10 bonus to STR-checks... sort of a super skill focus.

Wait, this makes Psions really brutal. I have to give it more thought.

Weapon & Attack Bonus
BAb is calculted per weapon (with each weapon being a feat) NOT for a class of weapons (eg Martial/Exotic) these weapons can include Unarmed attacks (eg Punch) and Power attacks (eg Optic Blast). This reflects two things - first in 'modern' settings people become skilled in specific weapons not all types and second a Power attack as a 'Signature' item needs its own development.

I think going back to the old ideaology of one weapon per proficiency is a bad idea. I don't believe modern characters train more specifically than medieval characters. For signature items, take weapon focus. If you're good with a batarang, it stands to reason you'd be good with boomerangs, too.

Power Levels
The mixed power levels is a problem but is really more of an issue for the DM - who needs to cater to all PCs. The other thing is by making 'Power Feats' more costly those who do not take them gain a greater variety of 'mundane' abilities (including BAb)with which to compete.

By starting characters out in mid-stream, say 10th level, it gives the DM a chance to have low-level NPCs as sidekicks and encounters. A 1st level commoner already has rules built into the system and it's a good thing to be able to use those rules. I'd also like the system to be compatible, so a superhero could encounter a 15th level Wizard (or even be a 15th level Wizard, or have Wizard levels). This means all the books would still be useful.

What I'm envisioning means we have to wait for the Epic Level handbook to really start digging around for ideas... Perhaps Epic play is a form of Superheroics and it'll be easily adapted.

Greg

 

[WizarDru]

A 20th level d4 character will have lots of wealth and 8 Feats -- even a commoner. He could probably beat a 6 HD monster. It all depends on the scale involved. I never said Batman was a commoner.

Well, my point is that Batman is a front-line fighter. He fights assailaints in the street in a very physical fashion. Superman has invulnerability, Batman has martial skill. If anything, Superman is the d4 character, with immunities and resistances, while Batman is a high hit-point character. When his powers are denied, Superman can't take much punishment (Iron Will, yes, high hit points, no). Bats gets the snot pummeled out of him on a routine basis, and suffers physical punishment that would kill most normal humans.

I think that illustrates the differences in their character's design, and the difficulty of making a system that allows both of them to be made. Has anyone read Godlike and it's talents system? How does it stack up?

 

[Zhure]

This could also be illustrated by Superman having 1 hit die. As a Kryptonian, he does really well because his 50/+5 DR lets him shrug off most bullets. Under the effects of a red sun, his DR becomes 0/0 and his only defense is his 1d10 of hit points.

Batman meanwhile still has 20d4 regardless of the environment.

Greg

 

[WizarDru]

Well, I can buy that (although supers being so vulnerable to magic, I'd reduce that to something like 50/+1, maybe).

Who would you define as a 20d10 character, though? The Hulk?

(Talk about hijacking a thread...pretty soon we'll be arguing superman versus the flash )

 

[Desdichado]

I wonder if Deities and Demigods could be used to play supers of a sort? Divine feats and the like as powers? I haven't picked up the book yet, so I'm not sure how well it would work: just a thought. That way, though, you've already got classes and mechanics worked out, and you still get the super-heroic feel.

I doubt you'd be able to exactly emulate comic books, though. You don't really have the same powers as you see in say, Mr. Fantastic, the Hulk or someone like that. You could create a real killer Galactus, though!

 

[Zhure]

Well, I can buy that (although supers being so vulnerable to magic, I'd reduce that to something like 50/+1, maybe).

Who would you define as a 20d10 character, though? The Hulk?

(Talk about hijacking a thread...pretty soon we'll be arguing superman versus the flash )

I think he's a barbarian with high INT and a lot of Feats like "extended rage" or somesuch.

About the 50/+1 DR. For magic and energy, it works out the same as 50/+5, since magic will cut right through it. Either way, we're quibbling about specifics when we should be talking about generalities. I can easily see Supes as having 50/+1 or 50/+5.

Greg

 

[mmadsen]

I know that Hero is flexible and well-suited to superheroes...it was designed for that, after all. However, unless Hero/Champions has changed dramatically from the last time I saw it, it's a gearhead game, as Hong rightfully describes it, IMHO.

Absolutely.

Half of the game is designed around character creation, and it requires a fairly detailed understanding of the system to get a desired result. Very rewarding for those who want to spend the time learning the system in and out, very off-putting for those who just want to make a character and go.

On the other hand, while Hero requires a detailed understanding of the system to optimize a character, a similarly flexible system could be much, much simpler. It's not the flexibility that makes it such an accounting nightmare.

Hero has dozens of stats, many of them calculated from other stats, all point-twiddled to reach peculiar break points (the rounding rules reward values like 23 rather than round numbers like 10, 15, 20, etc.). It also has complicated "power frameworks" that require a lot of arithmetic to calculate point-savings for the most dedicated accountants.

Optimizing a character can be a game in itself.

From what I've heard, the anime game, Big Eyes Small Mouth, has the flexibility of Hero without the rampant accounting -- but I don't know firsthand.