Discworld

[Zaukrie]

I recommend starting with the Vimes (Night Watch) books - they're the most serious in tone (not that Discworld is ever super serious, but comparatively) and more like conventional fantasy. If I'd started with The Colour of Magic I don't think I'd have continued.

I have read colour of magic, and I still want to read more, since everyone agrees on this.....

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I have read colour of magic, and I still want to read more, since everyone agrees on this.....

I don't think any of the Discworld books are bad -- I'm close to finishing my second complete read-through of the series -- but they definitely hockey stick up in quality about four or five books in.

The "worst" Discworld books are much better than other series that get highly praised around here, which always makes me scratch my head.

 

[Clint_L]

Colour of Magic is good but it's not great, IMO. It's a bit slight and had I read it first I would have enjoyed it but would not have been waiting with baited breath for the next one is all I'm saying. I agree that the books take a massive upturn a few books in, when Pratchett really starts to establish his voice. This is not unusual for authors.

 

[Tonguez]

Reginald Shoe would be so happy to see this thread dragged un-alive and kicking from its musty tomb.

but because I can I will repost what I wrote in 2007 with slight amendments

1 I recommend that you DO NOT start with The Colour of Magic or its direct sequel The Light Fantastic. These are the first two books but don't quite have the same flow or depth that would define the rest of the series and thus Rincewind is my least favourite character. (In my opinion it's not until the fourth book Mort (the first Death Novel) that Pratchetts Discworld style really starts to shine.)

2 Regarding Ricewind later books "Interesting Times" and the "Last Continent" are much better, so you could start your Rincewind and Twoflower journey there.

3 The Watch series is certainly the most accessible (although it has morphed slightly from being about the Watch to being about the Life of Samuel Vimes). Many consider Night Watch to be Pratchetts masterpiece, although THUD could also claim that title.
I'll sneak Monstrous Regiment in as Watch-Adjacent though it's not about the Watch at all (it is a good meditation on propaganda, nationalism and gender roles in a war comedy wrapper.)

4 The Death series is Pratchetts chance to get philosophical and make observations on the human condition
Susan Sto Helit is part of the Death series but should have got her own series (sadly Thief of Time was the closest we got to that, although Hogfather is a Susan story too)

5 The Witches series gets better over time and requires pantomime sensibilities to really gel. Of the Witches series Lords and Ladies and Capre Jugulum are imho the best.

6 The Tiffany Aching series is also fun, though it fits on the children's literature shelf with The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents.

7 Moist von Lipwig is a later character (first appearance 2004) who got a trilogy that helped modernise the Discworld into the modern industrial age.
Unseen Academicals also fits in this set though it does not feature Moist von Lipwig.

8 The stand alones are Small Gods - which is a quintessential package of all of Pratchetts Discworld philosophy - and Pyramids, Pyramids which really is an isolate that never shows up again, except in the Djelibeybi joke

9 I also recommend you read Nation, its technically not set on Discworld, and may infact be 18th century Earth, but it is written in Pratchetts discworld style and is a great story too

 

[pukunui]

I recommend starting with the Vimes (Night Watch) books - they're the most serious in tone (not that Discworld is ever super serious, but comparatively) and more like conventional fantasy. If I'd started with The Colour of Magic I don't think I'd have continued.

Yeah, I made the mistake of having my cousin start with The Colour of Magic, and it put him off from reading any more.

IMO Thud! and I Shall Wear Midnight are the high watermarks of the series.

Unseen Academicals was a hot mess, and the last few books were missing Pratchett’s spark. It was a real shame he got Alzheimer’s.

I should point out that the Tiffany Aching series is only “children’s” because the main character starts out as a child, but Pratchett wasn’t one to dumb down his writing or shy away from darker, more adult themes. The first four Tiffany Aching books are fantastic. The last one not so much.

Incidentally, I have a signed copy of Going Postal (another excellent entry and the first to have chapters!) from when Pratchett gave a talk in Auckland not long after I moved here.

I think Men at Arms was my first one. My wife introduced me to Discworld when we were dating, and that was the one she had at the time.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

5 The Witches series gets better over time and requires pantomime sensibilities to really gel. Of the Witches series Lords and Ladies and Capre Jugulum are imho the best.

6 The Tiffany Aching series is also fun, though it fits on the children's literature shelf with The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents.

I strongly disagree with these two points. Other than Equal Rites, the first witch book and a crossover with an early version of Unseen University, all of the witch books, including the Tiffany Aching ones, are deeply thoughtful books about gender roles, the meaning of home, death and dying, etc. And if the publishing industry didn't tell readers that some of Pratchett's books were YA, I don't think readers would notice any difference.

The argument for not jumping around series is that there is continuity through the books. It's not strictly speaking necessary to have read other books in the series before you read, say, Making Money, but you'll get both fun Easter eggs and some extra layers of meaning that are, IMO, kind of necessary to understand one of Pratchett's best books. (What's the deal with the angel references? Does the Watch really have a werewolf on its staff? What's the deal with golems?)

If you haven't read any Discworld, I would say to at least glance at The Colour of Magic. The people who dislike it are loud and I suspect over-represented in online discussions of the series.

 

[pukunui]

I would argue that the issue with The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic isn't that they are bad. It's that they are more visibly parodies of the fantasy genre. Cohen the Barbarian is a clear parody of Conan, complete with snake cultist temples and the like. The Wyrmberg is a direct parody of Anne McCaffery's Dragonriders of Pern. Early Ankh-Morpork references Lankhmar. Vance's Dying Earth magic system is directly parodied in The Light Fantastic. And so on.

The fifth novel, Sourcery, is where things started to shift from parody to world-building. The plot fundamentally changes the way magic works, allowing the wizards at Unseen University to settle down into their dysfunctional roles without having to worry about assassinations and the like. It also brings Vetinari more to the fore as the Patrician.


And while I think that Thud! is Pratchett's greatest work, I have no idea what someone reading it as their first Discworld novel would think of it. I went into it having read every preceding Discworld novel and was fully aware of Vimes' journey up to that point. I'm sure that helped me appreciate the novel in all its wondrous, chaotic glory.

I was disappointed with Vimes' last novel, Snuff. I felt like he'd become a real Gary Sue. Part of the appeal of Vimes is that, despite always being a step behind the villain, he doggedly hangs on and finds a way to win. In Snuff, it felt like he was always one step ahead of the bad guy, so there was no real tension.

Same with Raising Steam. The deep dwarves were rather pitiful compared to the credible threat they'd been in Thud!, and having Vetinari moonlight as a steam train stoker was just plain silly.

I also disliked Unseen Academicals because it felt poorly written. It's been a long time since I read it, but I think it must have been the one he was working on when he was first diagnosed with Alzheimer's and perhaps didn't have the support he had with his later novels.

And then The Shepherd's Crown ... what a limp way to end the series. I'm sure Pratchett's Alzheimer's was really bad by that point, and I'm sure he just wanted to tie everything up in a nice little bow, but after reading this one, I wished he hadn't written it. I feel like it does a disservice to both Granny Weatherwax and the Elf Queen.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Cohen the Barbarian is a clear parody of Conan, complete with snake cultist temples and the like. The Wyrmberg is a direct parody of Anne McCaffery's Dragonriders of Pern. Early Ankh-Morpork references Lankhmar.

Ankh-Morpork never stops being Lankhmar. For that matter, almost no fantasy cities do (unless they're trying to be Gondor). It's a lot harder to find a non-Lankhmar city in the Forgotten Realms than to find a Lankhmar-derived one, for instance. (Also see City of Greyhawk, CISO, Ptolus and countless others.)

I'm also not sure if being a parody is really an issue. The Last Hero, which I believe is Cohen's last appearance, is Asterix-level parody of the Greek gods, but it's also about aging, death and (again) gender roles. Lots of great work throughout history have been parodies while also being fantastic on their own merits.

And while I think that Thud! is Pratchett's greatest work, I have no idea what someone reading it as their first Discworld novel would think of it.

I think that helps make Small Gods what I would call the single best Discworld novel. If he had never written any other Discworld novels, it would still be a classic.

I also disliked Unseen Academicals because it felt poorly written. It's been a long time since I read it, but I think it must have been the one he was working on when he was first diagnosed with Alzheimer's and perhaps didn't have the support he had with his later novels.

And then The Shepherd's Crown ... what a limp way to end the series. I'm sure Pratchett's Alzheimer's was really bad by that point, and I'm sure he just wanted to tie everything up in a nice little bow, but after reading this one, I wished he hadn't written it. I feel like it does a disservice to both Granny Weatherwax and the Elf Queen.

I'm reaching this period in my re-read. As I recall, it was clear that there was a little less polish and a little less complexity in these coming books. I his final books would definitely have been better had Pratchett not been ravaged by the disease. I also think that Shepherd's Crown is probably a little stronger than the few books preceding it, if only because Pratchett was clearly aware it was probably the end and had some stuff to say about it.

 

[pukunui]

I'm also not sure if being a parody is really an issue. The Last Hero, which I believe is Cohen's last appearance, is Asterix-level parody of the Greek gods, but it's also about aging, death and (again) gender roles. Lots of great work throughout history have been parodies while also being fantastic on their own merits.

Oh sure, most if not all of the Discworld novels have some elements of parody in them. What I meant was, those early novels are almost purely parody of other existing fantasy settings. There's an element of pastiche in them too. It wasn't until around Sourcery that Pratchett really started making Discworld a living, breathing world of its own. I think also that his parody topics changed. He wasn't just poking fun at the fantasy genre any longer. He started adding historical, political, religious and social commentary in his novels. There's a lot of marked social justice in some of his later works, with a concerted effort to make various species count as people (e.g. goblins) and so on.

I think that helps make Small Gods what I would call the single best Discworld novel. If he had never written any other Discworld novels, it would still be a classic.

I can appreciate Small Gods from as much of an objective perspective as I can muster, but I still can't help but find it a little too sacrilegious at times, which makes me unable to place it in my top 5. Like I get that being sacrilegious and poking fun at religion is the whole point of the novel, but that still lessens my enjoyment of it.

I'm reaching this period in my re-read. As I recall, it was clear that there was a little less polish and a little less complexity in these coming books. I his final books would definitely have been better had Pratchett not been ravaged by the disease. I also think that Shepherd's Crown is probably a little stronger than the few books preceding it, if only because Pratchett was clearly aware it was probably the end and had some stuff to say about it.

Absolutely. I just really didn't enjoy The Shepherd's Crown at all. I read all four preceding Tiffany Aching books aloud to all three of my daughters, but I didn't bother to read that one to any of them.

 

[Tonguez]

Ankh-Morpork never stops being Lankhmar. For that matter, almost no fantasy cities do (unless they're trying to be Gondor). It's a lot harder to find a non-Lankhmar city in the Forgotten Realms than to find a Lankhmar-derived one, for instance. (Also see City of Greyhawk, CISO, Ptolus and countless others.)

while Lankhmar is the quintessential Urban Fantasy setting seen across all fantasy cities, Ankh-Morpork is pretty clearly a parody of Dickensian London, which just happens to also be a squalid, crime ridden, fantastical urban sprawl.

I would argue that the issue with The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic isn't that they are bad. It's that they are more visibly parodies of the fantasy genre. Cohen the Barbarian is a clear parody of Conan, complete with snake cultist temples and the like. The Wyrmberg is a direct parody of Anne McCaffery's Dragonriders of Pern. Early Ankh-Morpork references Lankhmar. Vance's Dying Earth magic system is directly parodied in The Light Fantastic. And so on.

The fifth novel, Sourcery, is where things started to shift from parody to world-building. The plot fundamentally changes the way magic works, allowing the wizards at Unseen University to settle down into their dysfunctional roles without having to worry about assassinations and the like. It also brings Vetinari more to the fore as the Patrician.


And while I think that Thud! is Pratchett's greatest work, I have no idea what someone reading it as their first Discworld novel would think of it. I went into it having read every preceding Discworld novel and was fully aware of Vimes' journey up to that point. I'm sure that helped me appreciate the novel in all its wondrous, chaotic glory.

I was disappointed with Vimes' last novel, Snuff. I felt like he'd become a real Gary Sue. Part of the appeal of Vimes is that, despite always being a step behind the villain, he doggedly hangs on and finds a way to win. In Snuff, it felt like he was always one step ahead of the bad guy, so there was no real tension.

Same with Raising Steam. The deep dwarves were rather pitiful compared to the credible threat they'd been in Thud!, and having Vetinari moonlight as a steam train stoker was just plain silly.

I also disliked Unseen Academicals because it felt poorly written. It's been a long time since I read it, but I think it must have been the one he was working on when he was first diagnosed with Alzheimer's and perhaps didn't have the support he had with his later novels.

And then The Shepherd's Crown ... what a limp way to end the series. I'm sure Pratchett's Alzheimer's was really bad by that point, and I'm sure he just wanted to tie everything up in a nice little bow, but after reading this one, I wished he hadn't written it. I feel like it does a disservice to both Granny Weatherwax and the Elf Queen.

I very much agree with your premise here and it is very much seen over the Discworld lifecycle where as you say the first couple of books are a parody of the fantasy genre, built mostly on cliches and running on fantasy logic to package the joke with the setting just being background. They are good parodies in themselves but they are not what the Discworld becomes.

Its not until Guards, Guards and the invention of Samuel Vimes that Pratchett starts taking the Discworld seriously. Samuel Vimes is the first time a person actually responds to the fantasy silliness like a real person living in it - and he does so by arresting it and demanding a permit! Vimes looks at the fantastic and imposes law and social awareness and that is what gives the Discworld Shape.

Its after Guards, Guards that Pratchett stops just doing parody of the fantasy genre and starts doing character driven satire, examining how People* (to a certain value of "People") respond to the fantasy.
* Most Notably you have Reaper Man and Hogfather in both of which DEATH attempts to understand People and in Hogfather we get DEATHs famous speech "HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE."

The rest of the Discworld novels move between being character studies, social satires and philosophical musings where Pratchett got to share his views and discuss how beleifs and prejudice and morality create the world we experience. He was no longer just making jokes about fantasy he was raising a mirror to the round world and getting his readers to think.

The last few books, after his diagnosis are still good, though they a more straight to the point, losing the broader complexity and amusing digressions, no doubt because Pratchett himself was losing time and wanted to get to the point. He was a on a fast track raising steam and the Shepherds Crown is very much his goodbye passing on a legacy

I strongly disagree with these two points. Other than Equal Rites, the first witch book and a crossover with an early version of Unseen University, all of the witch books, including the Tiffany Aching ones, are deeply thoughtful books about gender roles, the meaning of home, death and dying, etc. And if the publishing industry didn't tell readers that some of Pratchett's books were YA, I don't think readers would notice any difference.

The argument for not jumping around series is that there is continuity through the books. It's not strictly speaking necessary to have read other books in the series before you read, say, Making Money, but you'll get both fun Easter eggs and some extra layers of meaning that are, IMO, kind of necessary to understand one of Pratchett's best books. (What's the deal with the angel references? Does the Watch really have a werewolf on its staff? What's the deal with golems?)

If you haven't read any Discworld, I would say to at least glance at The Colour of Magic. The people who dislike it are loud and I suspect over-represented in online discussions of the series.

fair enough. I do love the Witches series and everything they do, but I still beleive they got much better over time. Tifanny Aching and Amazing Maurice are YA, I like YA literature, it can be intelligent and thoughtful too