Disdain for new fantasy

[Dykstrav]

"slayers, Lodoss wars"

Somebody has probably already discussed this on another thread, but for the sake of completeness... Record of Lodoss War was based on a D&D campaign, and it clearly shows. I found it reasonably interesting. I feel that Ghim's storyline (about personal redemption in the context of a heroic quest) is a particularly apropros model for a heroic D&D character. All the major elements of both the classic heroic journey and a classic D&D campaign are there.

Still, I don't think that there's anything "wrong" with D&D if it doesn't incorporate anime conventions. I know players who want their fantasy to be Vampire Hunter D and Dragon Ball Z, but I still like my Conan and Illiad/Odyssey inspired games. There's room for many styles of play within D&D.

 

[Fifth Element]

I disagree. When a system (such as 3E) presumes fast levelling, a high saturation of magic items, and piles of gold at every level, it's difficult to tone that down and still remain consistent with all the rules, as well as materials like modules and third-party publications. Add to that the expectation of many players that they will be playing at the level prescribed by the core rules, and you usually get power creep.

The same could be said about scaling up a low-powered standard. It goes both ways. Adding a bunch of magic items to a low-powered standard, for instance, will throw off the "core" balance.

As a chef would say, you can always add salt to a dish, but it's almost impossible to take it out.

He might say that, but he would be talking about food, not D&D.

 

[DonTadow]

When I describe D&D as "anime", I'm generally referring to:

Quasi-furry half-something template races
Ridiculous, over-sized weapons (like the spiked chain)
Super-heroic characters, able to leap buildings and throw boulders around

I've always preferred the default D&D PC to be an Indiana Jones. In 3E they became X-men, and "anime" describes a character of similar abilities.

My complaint is that gamers should be able to scale a game up to that type of theme, but I dislike a system that makes it the standard.

That statement is pretty much an insult to comic books? When did mutant become a class in 3e?

But d and d has had these types of characters for decades well before the anime became pop culture. If you were looking for indiana jones you've been playing the wrong game for decades. Every sys;tem, from 1 e on up, has been geared to make heroes well above the normal human. Then again, no ones asking you to run your games any differently. D and D is just a system, what you are describinb as "the problem" are setting issues and as a dm you make up the setting so if you don't want it to be anime you don't have to have it like that.

From your statements it doesnt sound like you know much about anime nor do you know much about comics. I"d leave the anaologies alone. Perhaps it is best to say that dungeons and dragons is a bit too much fantasy for you and you prefer more realistic settings.

Don't liked spiked chain, don't put it in your game (though i've never seen a spiked chain as an oversized weapon in any anime

 

[Nifft]

There are some crackpots, but they're pretty rare here compared to other boards.

EN World is the one true board. All other boards are a pale imitation of the real thing.

, -- N

 

[Henry]

For me, many Asian-imported anime/manga/fantasy stories contain names, storylines, body language, and visual styles are are just plain silly. By the same token, I know it's not necessarily any sillier than the Gnarley Forest, the Duchy of Geoff, or the House Orien Express, but the tropes just keep me from enjoying them.

The storylines, however, when boiled down to their essentials, are quite well done and adult in content. Consider a boy with a cursed destiny, shunned by many, who desires to become the heroic guardian of his people; one who takes that curse, and transforms it into something Good, not evil, and along his journey discovers what it takes to really be a hero, in real life rather than in stories. From what I can gather, that's the storyline of Naruto (from a friend of mine), but the actual on-screen look of the characters, the way the characters act, their power effects, and the unrealistic aesthetic, just puts me off. I had to have someone boil it down to appreciate the story, and I still can't bring myself to watch the darn thing more than a few minutes at a time.

About the only anime I liked was Cowboy Bebop, but mainly because it RARELY showed the kinds of elements that other Asian anime shows. It was grittier in tone (thanks to the gumshoe film-noir emulations), and I "got" the storyline. And not one person showed up with a 7-foot sword. This coming from a guy who watched Ultraman and Space Giants as a kid - I just dislike the aesthetic, and when many of its elements show up in other things I enjoy, like D&D and Star Wars, it tunes me out immediately to even the good parts. Heck, to this day I still can't watch those Tartakovsky Clone Wars cartoons, because the style reminds me too much of it, for some inexplicable reason.

 

[breschau]

WOW: I agree with the above poster, D&D should be primarily role-playing, but with lots of adventure, not an endless series of killings, and gathering stuff.

Anime: I just have never liked Anime. The stories, the character attitudes, the way they use magic in thier worlds. It is just no D&D to me. Should be a seperate game.

The amount of role-playing involved in any game is entirely determined by those at the table during the game. The system has nothing to do with it. As far back as OD&D (back when Dwarf was a class) there was role-playing, yet, magically there were no rules (crunchy bits) covering how to role-play.

No matter the system you role-play as much as you choose to.

Don't hate the game, hate the player.

I've played since '84, when my older brother and his friend needed an extra man to fill out the party. I've loved it ever since. This is fantasy role-playing, not Medieval European Chivalric role-playing. Think bigger. I've played knights and kobolds for 20+ years. I love the system, I'm chomping at the bit to play something with more scope and inspiration. I'm ecstatic about the inclusion of anime influenced rules and settings into D&D. (I loved Dark Sun, Al-Qadim, and Planescape. Anything to expand the boundaries.) Tome of Battle was spectacular for me. That bit at the start about this not being your father's D&D, and the D&D presented therein as the most culture blind, that was priceless. I hope they include that bit of text at the start of every 4th Edition book ever printed.

"More than any other, this book represents "culture-blind" D&D: fantasy gaming in a world where silent ninjas and wandering kung-fu master live side by side with noble paladins and fearsome monsters. Tome of Battle isn't your parents' D&D--it's bigger, bolder, and even more fantastic than ever before."

Thank the gods. That bit's gold. Just like that and keep 'em coming.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

The same could be said about scaling up a low-powered standard. It goes both ways. Adding a bunch of magic items to a low-powered standard, for instance, will throw off the "core" balance.

If the world and the adventures were solely PC/NPC builds, I would agree completely. Scaling up and down would be a matter of adjusting wealth and xp given out per challenge - and things like this.

However, monsters do not scale so easily. Some monsters in the monster manuals just down't scalle down easy. Forgive me if this is a crude comparison, but with some creatures it is hard to defang them a little without outright neutering them. It can be done, but it is a ton of work to scale monsters down. Scaling them up, however, is usually much easier!

I feel this way about steampunk and gunpowder in my D&D. some superb settings have them (Iron Kingdoms), but it violates my mental set for "acceptable anachronisms" in a way that's hard to describe. Spelljammer was the same way, totally trashing my suspension of disbelief.

I hear you on the whole gunpowder thing! In Into the Moral Darkness, my latest story hour, I've just had to think through the naval aspects of my campaign world. My wife had bought me a book on pirates and I was looking forward to using it in the story hour (and if you remember Pirate Day from last year you know there is more to the story than I'm telling!). But, I suddenly realized that my campaign world didn't have gunpowder. So, that meant that ships like frigates and galleons would need to be seriously revised to make a more trireme "ramming" style.

Decisions we make can be difficult, and when it comes to decisions like gunpowder and even cinematic maneuvers ... I find those kind of decisions are seldom made lightly. And if they are made lightly, I often regret the decision I made!

 

[Cadfan]

First, notice that World of Warcraft is basically a repetitive combat game. A lot of people don't like this, or at least think this would be bad in D&D, so saying that "D&D is becoming too much like World of Warcraft" is an effective insult.

Second, notice that there are a lot of whiny grognards out there. They toss the "D&D is becoming too much like World of Warcraft" whine at things that, while like World of Warcraft, have absolutely nothing to do with the way World of Warcraft is repetitive and combat oriented. For example, World of Warcraft has a class who's primary feature is that it has a pet monster. If D&D were to create a class in which the character's primary feature were a pet monster, these grognards would start whining about how D&D was copying WoW, becoming too like WoW, next thing you know they'll have thrown out roleplaying completely, blah, blah, blah. Even though the pet class aspect of WoW has nothing to do with its undesirable characteristics. See?

As for the anime thing, I don't know. There's a legitimate stylistic difference between western fantasy and anime fantasy, in that anime fantasy usually allows incredible feats of agility and speed, whereas western fantasy usually just has incredible feats of physical strength. But honestly, most of the people who complain about D&D becoming "too anime" are perfectly ok with the exact same things happening as long as you put a gloss on it by casting a spell first.

 

[DonTadow]

First, notice that World of Warcraft is basically a repetitive combat game. A lot of people don't like this, or at least think this would be bad in D&D, so saying that "D&D is becoming too much like World of Warcraft" is an effective insult.

Second, notice that there are a lot of whiny grognards out there. They toss the "D&D is becoming too much like World of Warcraft" whine at things that, while like World of Warcraft, have absolutely nothing to do with the way World of Warcraft is repetitive and combat oriented. For example, World of Warcraft has a class who's primary feature is that it has a pet monster. If D&D were to create a class in which the character's primary feature were a pet monster, these grognards would start whining about how D&D was copying WoW, becoming too like WoW, next thing you know they'll have thrown out roleplaying completely, blah, blah, blah. Even though the pet class aspect of WoW has nothing to do with its undesirable characteristics. See?

As for the anime thing, I don't know. There's a legitimate stylistic difference between western fantasy and anime fantasy, in that anime fantasy usually allows incredible feats of agility and speed, whereas western fantasy usually just has incredible feats of physical strength. But honestly, most of the people who complain about D&D becoming "too anime" are perfectly ok with the exact same things happening as long as you put a gloss on it by casting a spell first.

Fully agree. People are tossing around warcraft having never played it nor not knowing any elements of the game. Same with anime. Heck, Lodoss Wars was what encouraged me to start d and d. Anyone who hasn't seen it watch it, it is as close as you will get to a real dungeons and dragons show.

Saying i hate anime is like saying i hate american cartoons. There's just too many variety to really hate them all.

Heck, wow isn't even the most popular MMORPG out there EQ2 is.

 

[SSquirrel]

I loved Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, wonderful movie, but I don't need it in my DnD any more than I need the Transformers movie in it.

The 3E Psionics handbook came out shortly after CT,HD and I felt that was exactly what monks should have always been, but the Psi Warriors didn't have enough of a blend w/normal monks to make it feel right to me. If I'm gonna have monks in my game, I wanna see crazy wall runs and the kinda crazy stuff ya see in that movie