Disdain for new fantasy

[Arkhandus]

When I describe D&D as "anime", I'm generally referring to:

Quasi-furry half-something template races
Ridiculous, over-sized weapons (like the spiked chain)
Super-heroic characters, able to leap buildings and throw boulders around

I've always preferred the default D&D PC to be an Indiana Jones. In 3E they became X-men, and "anime" describes a character of similar abilities.

(just to note, not trying to single you out, but responding to these kinds of points)

I don't think D&D has ever been at a point where the default PC was like Indiana Jones. I'm pretty sure that early fighting-men and dwarves and elves and magic-users could both dish out and endure more punishment than Indy ever did.

I also distinctly remember characters with high Strength (like 18/00 or whatnot) having a chance in older editions of bending iron bars or performing similar feats of strength. It isn't exactly a new option in D&D.

And of course, there's magic in D&D; a high-level fighter may be using an oversized weapon or throwing boulders precisely because the party's magic-user greatly augmented his Strength well beyond normal human limits.

Lycanthropes and similar man-beast hybrids have been a part of legends/mythology/fiction for a very long time, so I don't see how races like Shifters or similar (Vanara, Nezumi, Hengeyokai....centaurs, minotaurs, gnolls, orcs, mongrelfolk, aaracokras, alaghi, etc.) should be any kind of problem in D&D.


And I feel I should point out that hardly any D&D character, barring giantish creatures, can throw boulders or leap buildings. A very jumping-optimized Monk or Psychic Warrior (using much multi-classing and spells/powers and magic/psionic items....) of high levels can jump small buildings, but that's rather rare (it's not something they're going to be doing just by chance from having monkish or psionic abilities, it's something they have to grab up magic/psionic boosts for specifically; and it's likely to be more difficult than simply getting a magic/psionic spell/power/item of flight).

Notice the significance of magic and other supernatural powers involved in such efforts; a magic-user can already fly about with a 3rd-level spell, a potion, some magic boots, a magic 'cape', a magic carpet, or a magic broom......

 

[blargney the second]

WoW isn't any more monolithic than anime. I think there are a lot of WoW naysayers that don't realize that it offers more variety of gameplay experience than just the monster grind. The high level raids and PvP are seriously interesting games - it's just unfortunate that you have to slog through a lot of repetitive tasks to get to the good stuff.
-blarg

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Man, you should have been playing back in '77. You missed some good times back then. We'd crank up the Bay City Rollers and roleplay ALL NIGHT LONG.

I have roleplayed all night long but fortunately I have managed to supress all memories of the Bay City Rollers

 

[SSquirrel]

WoW isn't any more monolithic than anime. I think there are a lot of WoW naysayers that don't realize that it offers more variety of gameplay experience than just the monster grind. The high level raids and PvP are seriously interesting games - it's just unfortunate that you have to slog through a lot of repetitive tasks to get to the good stuff.
-blarg

After all the game really starts at 60 70 (soon) 80.

 

[pogre]

Saying i hate anime is like saying i hate american cartoons. There's just too many variety to really hate them all.

I thought anime was the style of art used in these cartoons. I do not prefer that style of art - so I say I dislike anime all the time. Am I missing the boat? I concede I may be.

For me, D&D was largely derived from older fantasy ideas especially Tolkien. It is game that primarily uses pseudo medieval Europe as an assumed background. I'm not suggesting it falls apart when other cultural elements are thrown in, but that background assumption appeals to me.

Personally, I don't mind new fantasy. However, I think new fantasy needs its own RPG. I prefer my D&D with classic tone and fluff.

That's close to my sentiments. The only difference is I would say personally I do not know new fantasy...

 

[blargney the second]

After all the game really starts at 60 70 (soon) 80.

*sad laugh*
It's really too bad that they hide the best parts of the game behind days and days of lackluster gameplay. I had to quit from sheer boredom around level 45.

 

[AllisterH]

Here's my problem with the opposition to the more "flashy" anime. I'll use Slayers as an example. Slayers, like Record of Lodoss Wars, is heavily D&D inspired. IIRC, Slayers was originally a RPG-novel (basically, in japan, people published their campaign as novels) and it doesn't have any of the visual clues people in this thread are equating with anime. No sword bigger than the swordsman, no changing of the hair colour...

Here's what I wrote on the WOTC boards about Conan/Aragorn/Arthur vs Anime

If you read a lot of Western fantasy with Conan and King Arthur and even Aragorn, at the basis it still is mundane. Basically, you're still a mortal character. Really, there's nothing in the live-action movie that Aragorn did (in fact any of the melee characters) which couldn't be at the least IMAGINED by afficiandos of Western fighters.

Compare this with say Gourry Gabriev (a fighter in the Slayers anime/novels/manga). Gourry is literally inhuman in the novels. He moves fast enough that Lina Inverse can't even see his movements (and she's a better than average swordsman). Strong enough that in the manga he can casually slice through an anvil with a NORMAL sword and in the anime, he's presented as strong enough that with his pinky finger he can take out a beastman creature that would make Conan sweat his loincloth. His senses are so highly tuned that Lina thinks he's part bloodhound/owl/bat. All in all, he's so far above human physically that Lina at times doesn't think he is HUMAN.

The thing is, Gourry makes more sense given what he's supposed to co-star with. Gourry is with a woman who literally can incinerate a small village with a fireball to say nothing of being able to smash entire mountains and large cities.

If you look at Western fantasy fighters, they aren't exactly shown up by their magic companions. They never feel small in the pants when they fight a single orc and say "I just killed an ORC in a long bloody battle" and their magic friend says "Oh? I just incinerated the whole village...Did you want me to save you one?"

D&D fighters are expected to contribute when they adventure with people who can make reality sit up and beg. Quite frankly, by the time a fighter hits 7th or 8th level, he should be BEYOND Conan and Aragorn and those guys. Western fantasy fighters shouldn't even be fit to lick his boots by then. He should be doing stuff that make people like Fahrd & Grey Mouser say "Ok, what the hell did he just do?"

That is what a fighter HAS to be IMHO.

Even using OD&D or 1E/2E as a standard of the magic user, by 7th level or 8th, how many of those famous challenges in Western fantasy would get completely obliterated by a wizard? Magic in D&D has ALWAYS been powerful and this hasn't changed at all in 3.x just a matter of how (in previous editions, that 3rd level fireball was good all the way up to 20th level whereas in 3.x you actually have to use the higher level spell to take out equivalent levelled foes)

Sure, its nice to think of the characters as being equivalent to say Indiana Jones but this has never been true in D&D....

 

[Li Shenron]

Personally, I don't mind new fantasy. However, I think new fantasy needs its own RPG. I prefer my D&D with classic tone and fluff.

Good summary

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Here's my problem with the opposition to the more "flashy" anime. I'll use Slayers as an example. Slayers, like Record of Lodoss Wars, is heavily D&D inspired. IIRC,

snip

Here's what I wrote on the WOTC boards about Conan/Aragorn/Arthur vs Anime

If you read a lot of Western fantasy with Conan and King Arthur and even Aragorn, at the basis it still is mundane. Basically, you're still a mortal character. Really, there's nothing in the live-action movie that Aragorn did (in fact any of the melee characters) which couldn't be at the least IMAGINED by afficiandos of Western fighters.

snip
Sure, its nice to think of the characters as being equivalent to say Indiana Jones but this has never been true in D&D....

You may be right about literary fantasy but if you go back to the myths it is a different matter. Now I am most familar with hte Celtic stuff and there are several accounts of Chucullan or Con Cearnach, Fionn and others taking out serveral warriors with a single spear cast. When Chucullan forced Fergus to yield due to a promise made years before Feargus in his fury at his twarted shot at revenging an insult made by the Ulster King attacked a near by hill and sawed the top off with his sword.

I seem to remember Hector killing multiple enemies with a stoke and Achilles likewise. The 'realistic' style of Tolkien or Leiber is they are writing for an audience that is not familar with the original myths and not inclinded to believe that someone could stall an army for a month or two or that a hunter could pursue a deer for 300 miles or so in a day.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I think to make the claim that "all anime falls under the same genre," you are going to need to be far more specific about what are the qualities which all anime share. Even among the things you list as what you have seen, I struggle to see how Ninja Scroll, Lodoss War, and Princess Mononoke all fall under the same genre.

If I could be more specific, I would've been. I can't, because I can't entirely put my finger on it.

As I said, it's partly just a difference in cultural storytelling styles. There's something about the pacing of all anime I've seen that throws off my enjoyment of it. I also dislike much of the dialog (dubbed is worse than subtitles, but I have a problem with the subtitled ones, too), though I'm willing to chalk that one up to translation issues.

But, beyond that... I dunno. There's something else that rubbed me the wrong way about every anime I've seen, but I honestly can't tell you what it is. :\