Disdain for new fantasy

[Delta]

Well, just scale it down then. If a low-powered standard can up scaled up, then a high-powered standard can be scaled down.

I don't think so. Consider this proposed scale: Level (1) Normal human, Level (4) Champion hero, Level (8) Superhero. Then it's intrinsically easy for players to scale up or down by choosing to start playing at level 1, 4, or 8; whatever they desire.

For example, Mutants & Masterminds does this. Power levels 1-20, with recommendation to start to play at Level 10, but optionally scaled wherever you prefer. I don't hear too much complaint about that system.

But alternatively, consider this scale: Level (1) Champion hero, Level (4) Superhero, Level (8) Mega-awesome superhero. Now you can't scale below "champion hero" by just selecting a level, you need to institute a whole series of unique house rules to modify the whole system from ground up. Why bother? Unfortunately (to me), it just so happens that it sounds like 4E is specifically using this latter scaling system.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Can anyone explain why if anything is derived from anime/WoW (even if it has a non-existent connection) it seems like there is opposition not based on the concept itself but from where it comes from?

I think it would be fair to say that many people [who perceive themselves to be] over a certain [mental] age (16? 18?) believe anime, WoW and such to not only be part of the same general [backward] trend in culture/society, but also to be something designed primarily for the youth of today, and thus a thing likely to be entirely irrelevant and useless to themselves.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Heck, wow isn't even the most popular MMORPG out there EQ2 is.

Um... no? EQ2 has fewer players than EQ1, about a quarter the players of FF XI, and approximately 2% as many as World of Warcraft. It barely even rates.

 

[Korgoth]

When I describe D&D as "anime", I'm generally referring to:

Quasi-furry half-something template races
Ridiculous, over-sized weapons (like the spiked chain)
Super-heroic characters, able to leap buildings and throw boulders around

I've always preferred the default D&D PC to be an Indiana Jones. In 3E they became X-men, and "anime" describes a character of similar abilities.

My complaint is that gamers should be able to scale a game up to that type of theme, but I dislike a system that makes it the standard.

Agreed. Anime generally seems to me to be like a comic book: everything is super fast, super strong, super in your face super super. Everybody runs like a cheetah, jumps like a jackrabbit on the moon, 14-year old girls punch down bank vaults, etc. It is, in a word, "cartoonish".

Obviously I'm talking about what I perceive as most anime, which is more like Dirty Pair than it is like Grave of the Fireflies.

That's not to say that there is anything wrong with liking anime. I just don't want it in my D&D. I can relate to a wizard or a dwarf far more than I can to a mecha-piloting catgirl ninja or even characters like Cyclops and Wolverine. YMMV.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I cannot honestly say that all anime is the same.

I can say that all anime I have seen contains elements I strongly dislike. It's something about a combination of the pacing the characterization that I just really can't get into. And yes, that includes Lodoss Wars, as well as Vampire Hunter D, Ninja Scroll, Princess Mononoke[/i], and half a dozen others.

I am not exaggerating when I say I have never watched an anime I truly liked. There are some I've liked more than others, but none that I'd watch a second time.

Does that mean they're bad? No, not at all. It's purely a taste thing.

But it does mean that when people say "Anime isn't a genre," I have to quirk an eyebrow, because--in my own experience, at least--it does have enough traits in common across the board to qualify as one.

 

[jasin]

I loved Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, wonderful movie, but I don't need it in my DnD any more than I need the Transformers movie in it.

If I had to list 5 things that made me switch to 3E, one of them would probably be that hong's martial artist let me play people from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

That said, I want that as an option, not the default. I wouldn't want crazy wuxia jumping/flying be built into the rules like in Dragon Fist so that everyone did it.

Except as an option. For a completely wuxia campaign, where even wizards jump good.

Actually, that might be a neat thing to have in the DMG: some sort of "campaign templates" that would change some of the rules all the better to create a certain atmosphere: a wuxia game, a Viking game...

 

[TwinBahamut]

I cannot honestly say that all anime is the same.

I can say that all anime I have seen contains elements I strongly dislike. It's something about a combination of the pacing the characterization that I just really can't get into. And yes, that includes Lodoss Wars, as well as Vampire Hunter D, Ninja Scroll, Princess Mononoke[/i], and half a dozen others.

I am not exaggerating when I say I have never watched an anime I truly liked. There are some I've liked more than others, but none that I'd watch a second time.

Does that mean they're bad? No, not at all. It's purely a taste thing.

But it does mean that when people say "Anime isn't a genre," I have to quirk an eyebrow, because--in my own experience, at least--it does have enough traits in common across the board to qualify as one.

As someone who watches a lot more anime than you claim to watch, I have to seriously disagree with the idea that anime has enough common traits to call it a genre. There is an incredibly wide variety of stuff out there, and while there are distinct genres in anime, there are many anime with such incredibly different qualities that you can't claim they are in the same genre.

Try comparing the original Transformers (yes, it is an anime) to other mecha anime, like Infinite Ryvius (Lord of the Flies meets outer space and fantastic giant robots) or Patlabor (which takes the route of reducing humanoid robots to the completly mundane). These series are very different in many ways, and this is just a relatively small amount of variation within the very distinct "mecha" genre.

If you compare a fairly down to earth romance story like His and Her Circumstances to an gory and fantastic action anime like Ninja Scroll, I think you would be hard-pressed to say they were the same genre. The same can be said for the intense pacing differences between contemplative anime like .hack//SIGN and mind-blowing fast-paced and surreal anime like FLCL.

I think to make the claim that "all anime falls under the same genre," you are going to need to be far more specific about what are the qualities which all anime share. Even among the things you list as what you have seen, I struggle to see how Ninja Scroll, Lodoss War, and Princess Mononoke all fall under the same genre.

Ninja Scroll is primarily an action film focused on the cliche badass hero. It is gory, extremely violent, and features the cliche romance subplot of the hero rescuing the girl who is unable to pretect herself. As a whole, it isn't very different than a Hollywood action film or Hong Kong martial arts film.

Princess Mononoke is not an action film, but is instead a typical Hayao Miyazaki production, with a lot in common with morality fables and fairy tales. Romance sub-plot is an alegory for humans coming to understand nature.

I am not sure which Lodoss War series you are referring to of the two, but I assume the OVA. That is essentially a classic hero's journey story, featuring an inexperienced youth struggling to grow into a man in the midst of conflict. The romance sub-plot here is a product of this growth of this hero as he trasforms from a person who the elf-girl looks down upon, into being someone who is her equal and who can protect her.

So, I hope you don't mind if I fail to see the similarity between these three anime.

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

I"m curious as to what do you define the differences between anime and dungeons and dragons.

Isn't fantasy just fantasy? Hasn't d and d action always been as over the top as it is in anime fantasy. The naming of spells, living weapons, legendary quests,

D&D was based on the fantasy/sci-fi stories of of Fritz Leiber, Robert E. Howard, H.P. Lovecraft, Jack Vance and J.R.R. Tolkien as well as the old E.C. Comics (non superhero) and various mythologies.

Over the past 30 years, D&D has been very inclusive of new fantasy ideas, even if those ideas sometimes didn't fit in very well with the original D&D core.

D&D used to be a game for readers of science fiction and fantasy, casual or dedicated.

It would seem that the current design direction is a game for players of fantasy MMORPGs and fans of anime (a VERY broad category, I know). It's not a bad idea, just something I'm not interested in playing.

It's the "New D&D" version of new coke.

Actually -- that's an unfair comparison. The new style is more like Red Bull, while the original style is Coca-Cola.

I guess that would make 1st edition the original Coca-Cola with the extra ingredient, and 2nd edition Coca-Cola from Mexico.

 

[SSquirrel]

I don't think that a slightly different art style means a dramatic shift has happened in the game. The artists had a certain style that had been decided on or maybe someone just drew a really cool picture and someone said "That's it! Lots of that please!" to the artists. The art from 1E to 2E was pretty different (dunno about skills and powers, I hated those books and never bought them) and the art in 3E was different again. I LIKE that the game changes in all aspects. I know some people would prefer that Erol Otus had never stopping doing D&D art, but if the game doesn't change it stagnates and people lose interest. The game also stops expanding.

This game is over 30 years old people, in that time, some things have been found which are maybe not as fun as they could be and things will change. Art is just a part of all of it.

w_earle>Maybe OD&D being coca-cola explains a few things, what w/the cocaine in the mix to explain the addictiveness to folks like Diaglo heh

 

[Branduil]

The Lodoss OVA is a better D&D movie than the actual D&D movies.

More accurate too.