Disdain for new fantasy

[Fifth Element]

90% of Anime is crap.
Also, 90% of video games are crap.
Likewise, 90% of classical music is crap.
(This is all because about 90% of pretty much anything is crap.)

Just like last season's battle cry ("like a videogame"), this season's battle cry ("too anime") simply indicates a general dislike for perceived youthfulness. In this case, it's particularly blatant, because there's nothing in concrete form to actually point at and dislike. All we're really arguing about is marketing.

QFT, as usual for Nifft. Well put.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Scaling down is super easy. Pick a different monster appropriate to the power level of the PCs.

What you suggest isn't scaling down, it's changing the adventure completely. It's like someone saying that in order to scale the cleric down everyone who wants to play a cleric should really change their idea completely and play a fighter instead. It really makes no sense.

[To use 3.x lingo in a 4e thread...] The conversation wasn't about how easy is it to make a CR 5 encounter for a party level 7 characters who are equipment/wealth/magic deprived enough to make them actually closer to an ECL 5. Any fool can make a CR 5 encounter a number of different ways.

What the conversation was actually about is how easy it is to scale the power level down for a character. There are many approaches to raising/lowering the power level for npcs based on class levels and all of them are rather easy: money changes, speed of acquisition of feats, point buy, etc. But when it comes to a monster, many of them are difficult to scale back. Sure, any idiot can simply replace the creature with a completely different and weaker one. But it takes time to be able to use the monster you want while trimming it's power level back. It isn't hard in all cases, but it is hard in many cases.

 

[Henry]

This kind of topic discussion is REALLY hard to pull off without unintentionally insulting someone, but I find it fascinating enough to try.

The kinds of stylistic elements that immediately send me thinking "anime" are things like:

• Enlarging one facial feature MUCH proportionally larger than the rest of the facial features to express emotion (huge smiles but small eyes in one shot, or huge eyes, but slit-like mouths in another shot on the same character)
• Character shots that either linger over one facial expression for many seconds, or repeatedly revisit that expression in cut scenes back and forth
• Action shots that are repeated several times to enhance the effect
• character names that refer to actions, or common words ("Guts" in berserk, Cloud Strife in FF7, Alucard in Hellsing)
• hair represented by "spikes" in differing patterns, usually to represent the "tousled hair" look
• strong references to specific martial arts styles or "secrets" that one character knows but others don't.
• characters, even the protagonists, whose motives are inscrutable to the viewer (namely me), but often have to do with an unspoken code of honor or rules that they are loath to break, and when they do they seem far more upset about it than the situation would seem to warrant. Even Star Wars kind of borrows this meme when describing why anger is so inimical to the Jedi... it's only through further movies and writings where this is better explained.

Caveat: not all japanese anime has each of these elements, and some shows that are mroe "western animation" has some of these elements. However, these are all elements that most anime I have seen share. There are some, doing a little poking around, that don't seem to have these elements (Sorcerer Hunter, Witch Hunter Robin, Monster), but these seem to be the least referred to anime, more often hearing of Lodoss War, InuYasha, Naruto, Escaflowne, etc. which seem to share many of these traits, and unfortunately most of these traits, especially together, turn me off to that style. I'm not looking to be convinced, but trying to clarify the whole, "you don't like anime? You don't know what you're talking about" thing.

 

[TwinBahamut]

For me, it's the anime in the anime that rubs me the wrong way.

That's not DND. It's anime. It belongs where it is. It does not belong in DND. IMO.

I can't follow you argument, other than it being a retread of "I hate anime" with no meaningful explanation of what it is about anime that you hate, or why it does not belong in D&D.

As it stands, you comment is not constructive to a discussion, since it can be interpeted in a nearly infinte number of ways, an thus says nothing for certain.

What specifically is it that you don't want, and why?

I mean, I really like anime (I probably spend more money on anime than D&D), and watch a wide variety of it, but I certainly agree with the idea that there are things in anime which don't fit in D&D. Saiyans, Super Robots, magical girls, geeky high-school boys who are surrounded by a harem of alien women, etc... These things are completely outside the genre D&D describes, and have no place in D&D. I don't think I have ever seen someone argue that they do.

There are also other things seen in anime that would be very interesting when brought into D&D. For example, I would love to see a good version of the Hanju race from the fantasy anime The Twelve Kingdoms in D&D. While I would not argue it should be core, I like the idea of running an Escaflowne-style giant robot campaign set in Eberron. There are many fantastic settings and places that would be interesting in D&D. There are all kinds of magical systems, wierd races, monsters, and variations of Eastern Mythology and culture that can add new ideas and flavors to D&D.

Finally, there are a lot of interesting characters and character types in anime that would make great PCs, NPCs, or BBEGs in D&D.

As a whole, saying that anime does not belong in D&D seems empty to me, since it denies the incredible variety of things in anime that could inspire players and designers to make something new and fun.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ummm, no. Next?

What you suggest isn't scaling down, it's changing the adventure completely.

…

What the conversation was actually about is how easy it is to scale the power level down for a character. There are many approaches to raising/lowering the power level for npcs based on class levels and all of them are rather easy: money changes, speed of acquisition of feats, point buy, etc. But when it comes to a monster, many of them are difficult to scale back. Sure, any idiot can simply replace the creature with a completely different and weaker one. But it takes time to be able to use the monster you want while trimming it's power level back. It isn't hard in all cases, but it is hard in many cases.

Ummm, no. Next?

The conversation was not about scaling down a specific adventure.

It was scaling down a campaign for play style.

That’s super simple to do.

A DM creating a scaled back campaign would not necessarily use the same monster or the same number of monsters that a DM creating a non-scaled back campaign would use.

And, he would not be an idiot for doing so.


If one were talking about a specific adventure, that’s not too difficult to do either. Drop a hit dice or two of the creatures, or drop the number of creatures from 5 to 4 or whatever. Or, are you incapable of doing that? The Monster Manual explains exactly how monsters are created. The scale goes both ways. Adding hit dice or dropping hit dice. Adding numbers or dropping numbers. Adding magic items / loot or dropping magic items / loot. That's not difficult. It's easy.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I can't really afford to buy anything I don't need at the moment, because I'm going off to university, otherwise I might have taken you up on that offer. If you're still willing to sell come Christmas though, maybe I can get my parents or sister to help out.

Just give me a shout. I like it but it's just talking up space.

 

[Piratecat]

Ummm, no. Next?

With this one line, you turn a really good post into a rude one. Please -- at a time when tempers are high, consideration for other folks is greatly appreciated by everyone.

 

[Piratecat]

Just like last season's battle cry ("like a videogame"), this season's battle cry ("too anime") simply indicates a general dislike for perceived youthfulness.

I want to create my own battlecry for 4e. "It's too blickish!" Sounds great, means nothing, makes me feel better when I yell it!

 

[Malhost Zormaeril]

I feel this way about steampunk and gunpowder in my D&D. some superb settings have them (Iron Kingdoms), but it violates my mental set for "acceptable anachronisms" in a way that's hard to describe. Spelljammer was the same way, totally trashing my suspension of disbelief.

I like the cinematic combat of high-magic, high-lvl D&D. But I understand how some people wouldn't.

Speaking of Spelljammer, I almost bought the boxed set in a garage (actually a school) sale back in '93, but someone told me it was bad, and tried to shoehorn science fiction into D&D, so I didn't.

I've regretted it ever since, as I was never able to find another Spelljammer boxed set, and reading about it on the web, I've become intrigued by the mix of high fantasy and Pythagorean celestial mechanics. Teaches me to take other people's advice at face value.

Similarly, lots of concepts found in today's anime is very similar to old Sword and Sorcery nonsense; the difference is mostly aesthetic, rather than substantial. In this case, pick up the concept from your anime of choice, change the Japanese name to an English one (for instance, Sharingan become Eyes of the Doppelgänger) and change the description a bit (the seven-foot sword becomes four-and-a-half, but still just as heavy) and frankly no one will be able to tell your source of inspiration is Anime and not Red Sonja. After all, few can still spot Disney's influence in anime aesthetics...

 

[TwinBahamut]

The kinds of stylistic elements that immediately send me thinking "anime" are things like:
Enlarging one facial feature MUCH proportionally larger than the rest of the facial features to express emotion (huge smiles but small eyes in one shot, or huge eyes, but slit-like mouths in another shot on the same character)

Yeah, this is very much a stylistic quality of anime. Shows up in comedy anime more than in serious anime, but it is there. This is most likely a result of how every anime draws its roots from the work of Osamu Tezuka (which very much has these aspects), which in turn is directly inspired by Disney animation.

Character shots that either linger over one facial expression for many seconds, or repeatedly revisit that expression in cut scenes back and forth

Can't say that I know what you are talking about... Maybe you are refering to anime that is cheaply made? Reusing animation and overly long static images are hallmarks of a low-budget production.

Action shots that are repeated several times to enhance the effect

Yeah, this happens. It annoys me, too, but it is a trope seen in some anime. I wouldn't call it one of the stylistic elements that define anime, though...

character names that refer to actions, or common words ("Guts" in berserk, Cloud Strife in FF7, Alucard in Hellsing)

Keep in mind, these are names where the creators use the English words even in the Japanese version, so it is intended to have a slightly different effect for Japanese audiences. It is also important to remember that actual Japanese names are not terribly different. For example, a common Japanese name is "Yuuki", which literaly means "courage".

hair represented by "spikes" in differing patterns, usually to represent the "tousled hair" look

True, especially in works originating from a manga. This is an artifact of drawing styles, as well as a general way of creating interesting visual effect in an easy to draw manner (since animation needs as many shortcuts as possible in order to remain under budget). Not universal, though.

strong references to specific martial arts styles or "secrets" that one character knows but others don't.

This is only an aspect of particular genres of anime (martial arts/shonen anime, mostly), and is not at all different from how things in equivalent genres of other styles (Hong Kong martial arts films) work. Arguably, this is actually based in how martial arts historically functioned.

characters, even the protagonists, whose motives are inscrutable to the viewer (namely me), but often have to do with an unspoken code of honor or rules that they are loath to break, and when they do they seem far more upset about it than the situation would seem to warrant. Even Star Wars kind of borrows this meme when describing why anger is so inimical to the Jedi... it's only through further movies and writings where this is better explained.

I don't think I have seen anything that fits this description, really... Any specific examples to help me out?

Caveat: not all japanese anime has each of these elements, and some shows that are mroe "western animation" has some of these elements. However, these are all elements that most anime I have seen share. There are some, doing a little poking around, that don't seem to have these elements (Sorcerer Hunter, Witch Hunter Robin, Monster), but these seem to be the least referred to anime, more often hearing of Lodoss War, InuYasha, Naruto, Escaflowne, etc. which seem to share many of these traits, and unfortunately most of these traits, especially together, turn me off to that style. I'm not looking to be convinced, but trying to clarify the whole, "you don't like anime? You don't know what you're talking about" thing.

Ah, I see what is going on...

Keep in mind, only a small fraction of anime is talked about very heavily. There are two distinct subsets which get talked about the most: the mainstream and currently popular anime (which tends to fall into a very narrow realm of genre), and the older anime from before it became relatively mainstream, which has somehow establsihed a wierd anime "canon" taken from the 80's to early 90's.

The former category comprises Dragonball, Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, Inuyasha, etc. Of what I just said, all but Inuyasha were all published in the same magazine in their original manga form, a genre publication called Shonen Jump. You practically have to follow a certain formula of characters, plot, and ideology to get published in Shonen Jump. Inuyasha was published in Shonen Sunday, a magazine targetting the same audience and general genre as Shonen Jump.

The latter category, the anime "canon", is mostly stuff that is fairly popular and is consdiered iconic, but I hate a lot of it... Ninja Scroll is in this list, but I can't stand that movie.

As a whole, a lot of the anime that would appeal to a broader variety of tastes is the stuff that is not talked about a lot.