Disdain for new fantasy

[Mouseferatu]

I can see how someone might not really get into the conventions of a foreign cinematic traditon.

And indeed, I find that many of my problems with anime--not all of them, but many of them--carry over to other Asian movies as well. There's just a different sense of pacing, and it's not one I personally like as much. There's nothing wrong with it; it's just not for me.

And again, I'm speaking in generalities. There are certainly exceptions.

However, saying that D&D is "too anime" because it borrows from these Asian themes a little, is essentially the same as saying that The Magnificent Seven is too anime, because it was a remake of Kurosawa's The Seven Samurai. You can borrow from another culture's fictional conventions without having to start thinking of your own fiction as a mash-up of cultures.

Well, sure. I wasn't one of the ones saying "D&D is too anime." I was just saying that I've, personally, never met an anime I really liked.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

And indeed, I find that many of my problems with anime--not all of them, but many of them--carry over to other Asian movies as well. There's just a different sense of pacing, and it's not one I personally like as much. There's nothing wrong with it; it's just not for me.

And again, I'm speaking in generalities. There are certainly exceptions.



Well, sure. I wasn't one of the ones saying "D&D is too anime." I was just saying that I've, personally, never met an anime I really liked.

Well, you could try something completely different. Look up Haibane Renmei (in English: Charcoal Feather Federation), and watch the first couple of episodes of it. I guarantee that there will be no asian action movie cliches.

edit: I'm not really attempting to suggest that if you don't like anime, you just haven't watched enough, or the right ones. I just feel like I have a duty to point out when an entire culture's worth of art and literature is being mischaracterized because the representative works aren't really representative of anything but a particular genre. It's like fantasy novels. If all you've read is Terry Brooks, you're not going to imagine China Meiville is sitting on the shelf further down.

 

[Arkhandus]

Right. If high-level spellcasters can bend reality to their will with the right spells, and can lay waste to entire armies by themselves in moments, why would you want high-level warriors to be relegated to purely realistic physical feats (except of course, the fact that they can single-handedly overcome a small regiment of enemy soldiers, though probably with terrible wounds)?

Why should the warriors be kept to realistic physical feats, when they've already got the abstraction of hit points (and no real fatigue mechanic for fighting their way through a horde of foes), and are supposed to be the equivalents of mythical/legendary heroes?

These guys fight alongside priests who make the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch look like an apprentice's cantrip, and mages who make freakin' Gandalf and Merlin look like cheap charlatans!

You would be doing a grave disservice to the Conan-equivalents and Aragorn-equivalents by insisting that they remain on the same level of ordinary (though impressive) physical power as their literary counterparts, when the Gandalf-equivalents in D&D make their literary counterparts look like cheap knock-offs.


Conan and Aragon were chumps, by D&D standards. Conan's maybe a Barbarian 1/Rogue 1/Fighter 4, or Brb1/Rog3/Ftr4. Aragorn's a Ranger 4/Fighter 4, maybe. Gandalf's a Cleric 5/Wizard 3/Fighter 2 with the Ring of Fire and maybe a few celestial hit dice.

D&D Fighters above 6th or 8th level are the Sigurds, Hectors, Achilleses, Herculeses, Jasons, Gilgameshes, and such of their world. Or even Dar the Beastmaster, He-Man, Duke, Snake Eyes, Storm Shadow, Shredder, Link, Turok, Sagat, Zangief, Johnny Cage, Liu Kang, Iron Monkey, Li Mu Bai, Guts, Cloud Strife, Auron, Dart, Haschel, Vash the Stampede, Kenshin Himoura, or Gene Starwind. Etc.

 

[LawfulGoodThief]

That is PRICELESS dude.

2e is coca-cola from Mexico.

Actually, Coca-Cola from Central and South America is sweetened with real sugar as opposed to corn syrup used in the US. It does have a different taste that some people prefer.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I think you are pretty much right, Arkhandus.

Literary figures like Aragorn are not the best standard to compare D&D fighters to.

I mean, you are quite right about D&D Wizards making wizards like Merlin look fairly weak in comaprison, but at the same time, people forget how powerful the fighters of Arthurian myth were. While Merlin sat back and did fairly little, acting wise and not using much magic, Arthur was going off and killing dragons and giants right and left. According to The Death of King Arthur, he was still a great warrior in his prime, casually fending off an attack by the Roman Empire as if it were unimportant, when he was in his 90's.

In other myths, Cuchulainn from the Celtic Ulster cycle once took down hundreds of warriors in a single day, by throwing pebbles at them from miles away.

Or there is Indian mythology, in which two warriors fight by sending millions of arrows at each other from their flying chariots. In the words of my twin brother (who seriously studies this stuff): "You have not seen an epic-level jump check until you have seen a guy jump from Sri Lanka to a mystic mountain in Northern India, and then leap back, carrying the mountain with him."

Conan barely qualifies as 4th level compared to these guys.

 

[Korgoth]

Or there is Indian mythology, in which two warriors fight by sending millions of arrows at each other from their flying chariots. In the words of my twin brother (who seriously studies this stuff): "You have not seen an epic-level jump check until you have seen a guy jump from Sri Lanka to a mystic mountain in Northern India, and then leap back, carrying the mountain with him."

Conan barely qualifies as 4th level compared to these guys.

That's only because those two munchkins are either playing in a Monty Haul game, or in Exalted.

Really, what you described may be a fun game for some people (though absolutely not for me), but I don't think it has anything to do with the particular game called D&D.

I suppose I could write up some house rules where all the characters are actually sentient shades of the color blue that argue with one another about differential equations by excreting armored Pilates balls and waging arena battles of spherical collision, the owner of the winning ball being allowed to present his opinion about the given equation, and my resolution mechanic requiring the players to compose 3-hour Carnatic concerts using traditional ragas (see, I kept this whole thing in India for you!). I could then assert that the game we're playing is D&D. Would that be a fair assertion?

 

[ruleslawyer]

That's only because those two munchkins are either playing in a Monty Haul game, or in Exalted.

Really, what you described may be a fun game for some people (though absolutely not for me), but I don't think it has anything to do with the particular game called D&D.

What? You mean the game in which people can stop time, summon gods to their aid, transport themselves to the furthest corners of the world, and do a thousand other similar tasks in an eyeblink? Please.

TwinBahamut's point has been legit from Day One of D&D. High-level PCs outdo their literary counterparts in all sorts of ways. The real difference between OD&D and 3e is that now the fighters have some chance to do so, though still not as much as the casters.

I suppose I could write up some house rules where all the characters are actually sentientshades of the color blue that argue with one another about differential equations by excreting armored Pilates balls and waging arena battles of spherical collision, the owner of the winning ball being allowed to present his opinion about the given equation, and my resolution mechanic requiring the players to compose 3-hour Carnatic concerts using traditional ragas (see, I kept this whole thing in India for you!). I could then assert that the game we're playing is D&D. Would that be a fair assertion?

You really are fond of inapposite discussion, aren't you?

 

[FireLance]

My concept of DND genre is Roman/Barbarian through Medieval Europe flavored with magic thrown in. Hand held weapons, armor, castles, wands, rings of power, etc. Not gunpowder. Not Asian. Not Aliens.

A lot of Anime draws heavily from sources that are not relevant to the more traditional DND genre. Hence, most of it does not belong. IMO.

To me, a lot of the things you mention are qualities of the setting, not qualities of the game. I personally think that the game has to be broad enough to encompass several different settings and styles. Naturally, since I am Asian (Singaporean Chinese, to be exact), I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with Asian elements and influences in my D&D.

 

[FireLance]

I suppose I could write up some house rules where all the characters are actually sentient shades of the color blue that argue with one another about differential equations by excreting armored Pilates balls and waging arena battles of spherical collision, the owner of the winning ball being allowed to present his opinion about the given equation, and my resolution mechanic requiring the players to compose 3-hour Carnatic concerts using traditional ragas (see, I kept this whole thing in India for you!). I could then assert that the game we're playing is D&D. Would that be a fair assertion?

No, because they aren't killing things and taking their stuff.

 

[Dalamar]

If the DND Fighter types start jumping from one end of a room to the other and bounce off the ceiling in 4E, I'll probably puke and not buy it. Some non-magical abilities are too fantastical and supernatural for feats or talents in DND. Again, IMO.

I don't know exactly how big rooms you're thinking of, but a 20th level 3E fighter can easily jump 15ft as a standing long jump without magic. That's enough to clear my studio apartment from one end to the other. With a focus on jumping (Skill focus, Athletic and a decent strength), a 20ft standing long jump becomes routine. A raging 20th level barbarian can jump, from standing, close to the world record for long jump.