D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Noctem]

Which was why we, as a group despised 4th. And one of the reasons we will discard FILO for 5th.

FILO?

 

[Maxperson]

FILO?

First in, last out would be my guess.

 

[Bleys Icefalcon]

First in, last out would be my guess.

Correctamundo. In this thread's case, the disintegrate would take it's full effect before any other effect. If the Druid is transformed (meaning his only existing form at the moment) into a Dove, with 3 hit points, and he is hit with a disintegrate spell, and he take 22 points of damage and blows his save, then ALL effects of the disitegrate spell would occur, before he transformed back into Druid form. Poof. Dust. Dust would in no way be able to transform into any version of a Druid.

 

[epithet]

Correctamundo. In this thread's case, the disintegrate would take it's full effect before any other effect. If the Druid is transformed (meaning his only existing form at the moment) into a Dove, with 3 hit points, and he is hit with a disintegrate spell, and he take 22 points of damage and blows his save, then ALL effects of the disitegrate spell would occur, before he transformed back into Druid form. Poof. Dust. Dust would in no way be able to transform into any version of a Druid.

Why the hell would you (or anyone) do that?

I mean, even Maxperson is only arguing that the "RAW" provides such a ridiculous permadeath penalty, while maintaining that he's not likely to run his actual game that way. It seems to me you're just looking for a way to be obnoxious to your players.

 

[psimon85]

21 pages on this?! Jeez!

Well I'm playing a druid in our current campaign and we briefly touched on this subject on Friday.

I know you have all been over RAI and RAW plus the specific beats general ruling. Also that a resolution order has been suggested in 1.target 2.damage 3.resolution

But here is how my group and I figured it would go based in our outlook of the 5ed rule set....

Upon wild shaping the Druid ASSUMES the hit die and HP of the beast, obviously these HP can be brought to 0 which under normal circumstances would cause the wild shape to drop the Druid back into humanoid form with its previous hit points minus any excess damage carried over...that suggests that the Druid is infact taking damage the whole time.

For instance if in bear form the Druid receives a blow from a sword dropping the bear to 0 HP any excess damage is received by the humanoid from from the same blow, not a separate blow, not needing another target or damage roll the very same sword blow.
That suggests that damage between forms is continuous and not separate.

Therefore this would be true for disintegrate. Although the spell specifically states at 0 HP the target is turned to ash which makes sense...and let's face it it's unlikely that the spell will drop you to exactly 0 Hp..there will always likely be an over spill way below 0, but obviously under normal circumstances that is irrelevant and you are ash.

However the Druid has a specific ability that allows that damage inflicted by the spell to be carried over from one form to the next. Sadly for the casting mage this means that unless the Druid's entire (dual layered) HP pool is depleted, the Druid will not be ash. Though we did suggest that perhaps the Druid is unable to use that beast form ever again, or perhaps struggles with shape shifting from that point onwards.

I suppose you could look at it either way and I get what people are saying as a form is still being dropped to 0 HP.... But the Druid's ability specifically allows for overspill of damage.

 

[Imaculata]

It is like I said:

Class mechanics overrule spell mechanics. If there's any confusion about the ruling, rule in favor of the class mechanic.

 

[Markh3rd]

The problem I see saying class over spell is that would allow the half orc or barbarian to trump disintegration. Even though Jeremy said it does not. Imagine a barbarian and Druid at the table and both are hit by disintegration spells. If you let the Druid live by ruling his class mechanics ignore the 0 hit point rule, but tell the barbarian his does not trump disintegration, you will have a problem at the table.

 

[epithet]

I would let the barbarian's ability save him, since that's what it is designed to do. Basically it just gives him a saving throw to not be dusted. I'm never going to look across my gaming table and tell a player that the class ability that could save their character from being permanently destroyed won't work because of an interpretation of an ambiguous rule. When it comes to destroying a player character, all rule interpretations go in favor of the character. If I kill your character permanently, you'll know that it is in spite of getting as many breaks as reasonably possible. It might still happen, but I'm not gonna dust you on a technicality.

 

[Imaculata]

I would let the barbarian's ability save him, since that's what it is designed to do. Basically it just gives him a saving throw to not be dusted. I'm never going to look across my gaming table and tell a player that the class ability that could save their character from being permanently destroyed won't work because of an interpretation of an ambiguous rule. When it comes to destroying a player character, all rule interpretations go in favor of the character. If I kill your character permanently, you'll know that it is in spite of getting as many breaks as reasonably possible. It might still happen, but I'm not gonna dust you on a technicality.

My thoughts exactly. I don't like arbitrary exceptions to the core rules. I want my players to be able to rely on their class mechanics, and not have strange deviations crop up due to bad spell descriptions. If the class mechanic is meant to protect the player against damage that would normally reduce them to 0 hp, then that class mechanic should always work, or at least as far as damage is concerned. Disintegrate is a damage-based spell, so I see no need for any exception there.

 

[Arial Black]

Correctamundo. In this thread's case, the disintegrate would take it's full effect before any other effect. If the Druid is transformed (meaning his only existing form at the moment) into a Dove, with 3 hit points, and he is hit with a disintegrate spell, and he take 22 points of damage and blows his save, then ALL effects of the disitegrate spell would occur, before he transformed back into Druid form. Poof. Dust. Dust would in no way be able to transform into any version of a Druid.

If the disintegrate must have its full effect, then that full effect comes in two parts:-

1.) do lots of damage
2.) after doing its damage, if the target has no hit points left, it is turned into dust (which is likely to be fatal)

How do we know that we check for hp after doing the damage? Does anyone think that we check before we apply the damage?

Damage, whether from this spell or a sword stroke, is done instantaneously as far as the game rules go. You don't do 12 points of damage from a sword and say, 'One hp; are you dead yet? No? Okay, another hp; that makes two. Are you dead yet?' This could take a while!

That's not how we play and it's not how the game reality works. If an attack-sword or spell-does, say, 80 points of damage then that damage is delivered all at once, not in one hp increments.

So if a sword hits a wild shaped druid for 80 points, you check for unconsciousness/death after resolving that 80 points. In the meantime, the mechanics of wild shape mean that the 80 points lower the hp of the beast form until there are none left, at which point those remaining points reduce the druid's hp instead.

It should be noted that when those 80 points from the sword stroke reduced the beast form to zero, the beast/druid never fell unconscious, never died. He reverted instead. That's how wild shape interacts with damage.

Hitting the same druid for the same 80 hp from disintegrate works the same way. Disintegrate is not a save-or-die spell, it is a damage-dealing spell, which may or may not have a rider effect depending on the result of that damage. All the damage, not bits of it. The result of that damage is a reverted druid with reduced hp but more than zero, therefore not dusted.

Just like the sword stroke, the disintegrate does its 80 points, and when the beast form hits zero there is no unconsciousness, no death, no dust, none of the usual consequences of being reduced to 0 hp apply, because reverting to druid form is the consequence which replaces the usual consequences of falling to zero hp, whether or not the usual consequence would be unconsciousness, death, or dust.