D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Maxperson]

If the disintegrate must have its full effect, then that full effect comes in two parts:-

1.) do lots of damage
2.) after doing its damage, if the target has no hit points left, it is turned into dust (which is likely to be fatal)

#2 is incorrect. There is no requirement in the disintegrate spell that forces it to check after full damage has been dealt.

How do we know that we check for hp after doing the damage? Does anyone think that we check before we apply the damage?

False Dichotomy. It can check during damage, which is allowed for as disintegrate is written.

Damage, whether from this spell or a sword stroke, is done instantaneously as far as the game rules go. You don't do 12 points of damage from a sword and say, 'One hp; are you dead yet? No? Okay, another hp; that makes two. Are you dead yet?' This could take a while!

You do exactly that with Druid wild shape. Otherwise the druid could not revert at 0 and would have to revert at some sort of negative hit point total.

That's not how we play and it's not how the game reality works. If an attack-sword or spell-does, say, 80 points of damage then that damage is delivered all at once, not in one hp increments.

In general, no. With Druid wild shape, yes. That's how the game reality works with that ability.

So if a sword hits a wild shaped druid for 80 points, you check for unconsciousness/death after resolving that 80 points. In the meantime, the mechanics of wild shape mean that the 80 points lower the hp of the beast form until there are none left, at which point those remaining points reduce the druid's hp instead.

No you don't. You check each individual hit point of damage to see if the Druid hits 0. When that happens, the Druid reverts and you continue on. To save time, we skip the individual steps and just apply damage equaling the wild shape total, revert, and continue on. Disintegrate is the same. You apply damage equaling the total, "If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated." (direct quote), revert the druid at 0, and continue on applying the rest of the damage to the ashed Druid.

It should be noted that when those 80 points from the sword stroke reduced the beast form to zero, the beast/druid never fell unconscious, never died. He reverted instead. That's how wild shape interacts with damage.

This is how you know that you are wrong. Reversion doesn't undo death. If the full 80 points was applied before reversion, the Druid would die from massive damage before he reverted. There is also no language in wild shape that allows for reversion to have happened "instead". It doesn't undo time. You are also flat out ignoring the wild shape rules that say that excess damage carries over to the reverted form, which directly contradicts your assertion that the 80 hit points of damage is not broken up.

 

[epithet]

This is ridiculous.

The bottom line is that the wild shaped druid has two pools of hit points, his humanoid pool and his beast pool. Until both pools of hit points are emptied, the druid is not truly reduced to 0 hit points. You can't just ignore the humanoid pool of hit points, that would be both unfair and stupid. It's always there, waiting for the druid to revert, and you don't get to pretend it isn't just because you want to get into a semantic argument.

You know how disintegrate is supposed to work against a wild shaped druid, thanks to a response from the rulemaster at Wizards. You've admitted that you don't use this ridiculous interpretation you're insisting is "RAW" at your own table. Where do you hope that this argument will end up? Do you see a pathway to vindication for your position opening up? I mean, you have received confirmation of the intent of the rule, and there have been several of us who have told you that our reading of the rule "as written" perfectly aligns with that stated intent. Of the few posters in this thread who support your interpretation, most have been apparently keen on twisting the wording of a rule in order to screw over a druid, not particularly interested in a reasonable interpretation of the intersection of the two rules sections at play in this topic.

At this point, are we just arguing for the sake of argument?

[video=youtube;kQFKtI6gn9Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y[/video]

 

[Arial Black]

#2 is incorrect. There is no requirement in the disintegrate spell that forces it to check after full damage has been dealt.

Actually, the rules mean there can be no other time to check. It cannot mean that you check before the damage has been dealt; that would be meaningless. Therefore, we must check after the damage has been dealt.

False Dichotomy. It can check during damage, which is allowed for as disintegrate is written.

There is no 'during'! Damage is applied instantly, not drip-fed.

No you don't. You check each individual hit point of damage to see if the Druid hits 0. When that happens, the Druid reverts and you continue on. To save time, we skip the individual steps and just apply damage equaling the wild shape total, revert, and continue on. Disintegrate is the same. You apply damage equaling the total, "If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated." (direct quote), revert the druid at 0, and continue on applying the rest of the damage to the ashed Druid.

'Doing 80 points of damage' is a separate thing to 'reducing the target's hit points by 80'.

The damage is done instantly. This is the cause of hp loss.

The hp loss is the effect of the 80 points of damage.

The wild shape rules do not alter the way damage is done in any way at all. It is done in a single instant.

Wild shape alters the way hp are lost. Usually, stuff happens when hp reach zero. BTW, one of those things is to calculate if the remaining damage equals your hp total. If it does, you die. This does not mean that you take that extra damage; 'dying' here is an effect of your hp reaching zero. The damage of the attack didn't trigger that; if it did then you'd die whether or not your hp reached zero. Dying from massive damage is not directly caused by the damage of the attack because the damage the attack delivers does not directly kill you. The damage lowers your hp, and that it what might kill you.

So wild shape does not affect the damage that is done to you, it changes the consequence of falling to zero hp. Instead of the usual consequences, which may include 'checking to see if disintegrate turns me to dust', the druid reverts instead of those usual consequences, and the druid's hp are further reduced.

Disintegrate does damage, and that damage interacts with the target's hp. Only after the target's hp have been affected is the 'dust check' made. That check cannot be made half-way through the damage being done, because that is instantaneous. That check cannot be made before the damage has interacted with the target's hp. It must be made after the damage done has interacted with the target's hp.

An attack may very well deliver 80 points of damage, but this may not reduce the target's current hp by 80, even if the target has more than 80 current hp. Immunity, resistance, saving throws, magic items, spells, class abilities, all sorts of things may modify the way the 80 damage interacts with the target's hp. 'Damage' and 'hit points' are not the same thing.

The sequence of events must be:-

* disintegrate is cast. 'Dust Check'? No.
* damage is calculated. Result is, say, 80. Dust check? No.
* saving throw, pass/fail. Dust check? No.
* any other defences? Immunity to the spell, perhaps. Dust check? No.
* target's hit points are reduced by (maybe, depending) 80. If the wild shape is reduced to zero, the excess damage carries over to the reverted druid. Dust check? Yes.

At this point, if the reverted druid has zero hp, he is dust. If he has hp, he is not.

 

[Imaculata]

Basically its: Disintegrate spell -> Resolve damage ( this includes the Druid ability being triggered) -> Check if the target is at 0 HP

 

[Maxperson]

Actually, the rules mean there can be no other time to check. It cannot mean that you check before the damage has been dealt; that would be meaningless. Therefore, we must check after the damage has been dealt.

There is no 'during'! Damage is applied instantly, not drip-fed.

'Doing 80 points of damage' is a separate thing to 'reducing the target's hit points by 80'.

The damage is done instantly. This is the cause of hp loss.

The hp loss is the effect of the 80 points of damage.

You keep making claims that the rules just don't say. There isn't a rule that says damage is applied instantly, and even if there was, specific beats general allows for disintegrate (a specific rule) to beat the general one and check like its wording allows.

The wild shape rules do not alter the way damage is done in any way at all. It is done in a single instant.

Wild shape alters the way hp are lost. Usually, stuff happens when hp reach zero. BTW, one of those things is to calculate if the remaining damage equals your hp total. If it does, you die. This does not mean that you take that extra damage; 'dying' here is an effect of your hp reaching zero. The damage of the attack didn't trigger that; if it did then you'd die whether or not your hp reached zero. Dying from massive damage is not directly caused by the damage of the attack because the damage the attack delivers does not directly kill you. The damage lowers your hp, and that it what might kill you.

So wild shape does not affect the damage that is done to you, it changes the consequence of falling to zero hp. Instead of the usual consequences, which may include 'checking to see if disintegrate turns me to dust', the druid reverts instead of those usual consequences, and the druid's hp are further reduced.

There is no "instead". Read the wild shape rules again. It's a continuous effect as damage is applied. When the wild shape hits zero, excess damage is applied after reversion which happens right then. The damage is interrupted for that effect. You are creating fictional rules in order to further your agenda, rather than reading and understanding the rules as they are written.

Disintegrate does damage, and that damage interacts with the target's hp. Only after the target's hp have been affected is the 'dust check' made. That check cannot be made half-way through the damage being done, because that is instantaneous. That check cannot be made before the damage has interacted with the target's hp. It must be made after the damage done has interacted with the target's hp.

Specific beats general and the lack of rules supporting your stance disagrees with that statement.

 

[Maxperson]

Basically its: Disintegrate spell -> Resolve damage ( this includes the Druid ability being triggered) -> Check if the target is at 0 HP

That's the intent, yes.

 

[epithet]

You keep making claims that the rules just don't say. There isn't a rule that says damage is applied instantly, and even if there was, specific beats general allows for disintegrate (a specific rule) to beat the general one and check like its wording allows.

There is no "instead". Read the wild shape rules again. It's a continuous effect as damage is applied. When the wild shape hits zero, excess damage is applied after reversion which happens right then. The damage is interrupted for that effect. You are creating fictional rules in order to further your agenda, rather than reading and understanding the rules as they are written.

Specific beats general and the lack of rules supporting your stance disagrees with that statement.

By your own standards, your argument is invalid.

The "wording" of the disintegrate spell is "A creature targeted by this spell must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 10d6 + 40 force damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated." That sets up a clear process, an order by which the spell is resolved.

1. Make the saving throw
2. If step one is a failure, apply damage.
3. If the target has zero hit points after step two, it is disintegrated.

Reversion from wild shape is part of step two, the application of damage. By the end of step two, the druid in our hypothetical has reverted to humanoid form, so when you get to step three you check to see if humanoid hit points are zero.

I feel as though you're just grasping at straws now, trying to keep this argument going after your position has been pretty thoroughly dismantled. The text and intent are in agreement regarding disintegrate vs. wild shape by any reasonable interpretation.

 

[shadowoflameth]

The druid and beast are not separate. The beast is the druid. Changing forms does not prevent the spells effects, and the beast form is not a spare body that can be dusted and leave the original intact. If the druid is in beast form and takes enough to reduce him to dust. He's dust. If he's in man form when it happens, dust.

 

[epithet]

The druid and beast are not separate. The beast is the druid. Changing forms does not prevent the spells effects, and the beast form is not a spare body that can be dusted and leave the original intact. If the druid is in beast form and takes enough to reduce him to dust. He's dust. If he's in man form when it happens, dust.

Changing forms doesn't prevent the spell effect, having hit points remaining does. It should be obvious to anyone that reducing the wild shape to 0 hit points does not reduce the druid to 0 hit points. There are many things that happen when a character is reduced to 0 hit points, none of which apply to a druid forced out of wild shape by damage. There is no reasonable way to read the wild shape rules other than to understand the shape's hit points to be added to the druid's hit points for the duration of the shape effect, but to remain a discrete pool for the purpose of determining the end of the wild shape effect.

The idea that a level 20 druid that becomes a sparrow has only 1 hit point is laughable. I suppose you think that if he takes 2 or 3 hit points of damage, he's instantly killed? That's the inescapable result of following your misreading of the rules.

 

[Bleys Icefalcon]

I suggest at this point, after all of the debate and argument, that those who think the Druid is dust... if the situation ever comes up, they allow the Druid to become dust, and those that want to do it any other way - then they promptly do so.

Everyone's HAPPY!