D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Imaculata]

To be clear Arial your example is already how it's supposed to work by following the Making an Attack section of the PHB which covers all forms of attacks (melee, spell, etc..) I feel that most people who say it's ambiguous after the clarification from JC and everything else just don't understand the rules as a whole that they are trying to discuss. Just need to spread the info from the various sections of the PHB which are relevant imo...

With well written rules, I think what is said on one page, should confirm what is said on another page (be it in the same book, or another). It's fine if a rule is repeated for clarity, and I think that is kind of what Arial is getting at. A more detailed description of the combat resolution order here would confirm what is said in the PHB elsewhere, and it could easily be included in just one sentence.

I don't think it is actually clear, because if it were people wouldn't have reached contradictory conclusions from it.

The discussion for the most part is rules as intended, versus rules as written. I think the intent is perfectly clear. But if you take what is written literally, you could come to a different conclusion.

So, I don't think people like Maxperson are actually wrong. I simply disagree with their ruling.

 

[seebs]

In the absence of the post specifically asserting that the devs intended wild shape to trump distintegrate, my interpretation of the intent would have been the other way. Disintegrate says "if the target is reduced to zero", not "if the target remains at zero", and I would have assumed that was the intent. So, no, the intent is not "perfectly clear". It is possible for a reasonably fluent user of the language to read the things and derive a different conclusion about intent.

That's because there's no actual statement about the interactions, so all we have is two rules which say different things about "zero hit points", and no way to tell which one is supposed to win.

 

[Noctem]

That's because as explained you're supposed to know that whenever you make an attack you follow the Make an Attack rules found the PHB. Disintegrate is an attack. So the 3 steps described there is what you follow. Step 2 is where damage resolution happens, wildshape specifically says that you revert during the damage resolution step because any remaining damage after you revert is then applied to your real HP pool. The disintegration itself from the spell happens during step 3 of the making an attack section in the effect phase of making an attack. You also have to understand that the wildshape form and druid are not 2 different creatures and that the spell does not specifically target the wildshape form. It targets the druid who's life pool is only reduced to 0 hit points, which is what the spell is checking, if the excess damage is enough to bring him to 0.

Basically, the problem here is there's multiple rules at play which interact to give us how this works. People aren't aware of some of these rules or where to find them which leads to confusion and the wrong conclusion.

That being said, the rules for 5e follow a deliberately "loose" form which gives more room for these variant interpretations. It's billed as a benefit but I don't agree with that statement at all. A solid base everyone can agree on is what's important. If after everyone understands how the base works, you want to make changes and develop your own version of the rules go for it!

 

[seebs]

That's because as explained you're supposed to know that whenever you make an attack you follow the Make an Attack rules found the PHB. Disintegrate is an attack. So the 3 steps described there is what you follow. Step 2 is where damage resolution happens, wildshape specifically says that you revert during the damage resolution step because any remaining damage after you revert is then applied to your real HP pool. The disintegration itself from the spell happens during step 3 of the making an attack section in the effect phase of making an attack.

Er, what?

I am very confused by this description.

Under Making An Attack, I see three phases: Choose target, determine modifiers, resolve attack. There is no way that damage resolution occurs during Phase 2 of this, since Phase 2 has only to do with determining modifiers to the attack roll.

Can you quote or at least give a more specific citation for the exact rule you're talking about? I'm looking at the top of page 194, and Phase 2 absolutely does not have any damage resolution. Everything is in Phase 3.

Furthermore, Wildshape absolutely does not specifically say that you revert during "the damage resolution step", because it doesn't refer to such a step at all; it may imply that, by talking about the overflow damage going into your natural form, but it doesn't specifically say anything of the sort; if it did, the words "damage resolution step" would be present in that text, and they're not.

The third phase does say "Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage", yes. But all the damage application and effects are covered by the same text here.

So far as I can tell, while you are polymorphed, the assumed form's hit points are your hit points. Consider: "You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die." (Page 66, repeated in the more detailed discussion on page 67.) Note that it says if you drop to 0 hit points. If you haven't dropped to zero hit points unless your druid form drops to zero hit points, then you never revert in the first place, because that's the condition that would trigger reverting.

It does say that you are not knocked unconscious if the excess damage doesn't reduce "your normal form" to 0 hit points. But the fact that it says "reduce your normal form to 0 hit points" as opposed to just "reduce you to 0 hit points" (emphasis mine) suggests strongly that, yes, if this clause comes into play, you were in fact reduced to zero hit points.

So the only test we have in disintegrate is "If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated." There is no distinction made between current form and natural form, nor is there anything saying "unless something else causes the target to gain more hit points again". The phases you refer to are not what I see in the "Make An Attack" rule.

So I don't see a basis for concluding that the intention is "clear". Furthermore, there's a parallel to be drawn with True Polymorph, and I think at least one designer has said that, if you concentrate on a True Polymorph until it becomes "permanent", it is no longer the case that the target reverts to a previous form at full hit points if dropped to zero hit points. On the other hand, that implies a distinction between permanent and non-permanent shape changes.

You also have to understand that the wildshape form and druid are not 2 different creatures and that the spell does not specifically target the wildshape form. It targets the druid who's life pool is only reduced to 0 hit points, which is what the spell is checking, if the excess damage is enough to bring him to 0.

Except that if the druid was never really reduced to 0 hit points, why did the druid revert?

 

[Maxperson]

To be clear Arial your example is already how it's supposed to work by following the Making an Attack section of the PHB which covers all forms of attacks (melee, spell, etc..) I feel that most people who say it's ambiguous after the clarification from JC and everything else just don't understand the rules as a whole that they are trying to discuss. Just need to spread the info from the various sections of the PHB which are relevant imo...

Making an Attack says nothing about waiting until all damage is done for other effects to happen. You're inventing rules again.

 

[seebs]

Now I am disappointed because I thought someone had found an actual rule which gave an order of resolution for damage and effects, but apparently not.

 

[Maxperson]

Now I am disappointed because I thought someone had found an actual rule which gave an order of resolution for damage and effects, but apparently not.

No. Noctem is a fairly bright guy and he tends to look at what would make sense and add that to RAW, even when the rules don't actually say it is so. It makes sense to resolve the entire damage roll first, but the rules don't say that you do. As a result, he often argues that his invented rules are RAW even though that's impossible.

 

[seebs]

I don't even think that "resolve the entire damage roll" really solves anything. The problem is that we have two rules that specify a thing that happens if the target of the spell (or the druid) is reduced to zero hit points. We don't have any way to establish precedence between them. I would argue that if the initial drop to zero counts enough to proc the druid thing, it probably also counts enough to proc the disintegrate thing. Either it happened, and things which proc off that event take place, or it didn't happen.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't even think that "resolve the entire damage roll" really solves anything. The problem is that we have two rules that specify a thing that happens if the target of the spell (or the druid) is reduced to zero hit points. We don't have any way to establish precedence between them. I would argue that if the initial drop to zero counts enough to proc the druid thing, it probably also counts enough to proc the disintegrate thing. Either it happened, and things which proc off that event take place, or it didn't happen.

I see it two ways. First, since disintegrate is the active ability and wild shape the reactive one, the active ability should have precedence in my opinion. Second, as you noted since the both happen, it really doesn't matter which order they happen in. You can turned to ash and then revert, being a pile of ash with X hit points, or you can revert and then turn to ash, being a pile of ash with X hit points. RAW provides no way to avoid the ash effect. RAI on the other hand...

 

[Arial Black]

As to that, whenever we come across RAW that could be read in either of two ways, and the wording doesn't solve the problem, then go to the concept behind the effects in question.

With disintegrate, what the 'dust at 0hp' rule is trying to simulate is that if you would otherwise die or be knocked unconscious from the damage dealt by this spell, it turns you to dust.

But the beast form going to 0hp does not result in the usual death/unconsciousness; it results in a reverted druid, who takes the excess damage.

There is no dead/unconscious beast, therefore there is no dust.