Disintegrate vs. Slay Living

[Jhyrryl]

Three things: 1) there is no such thing as disintegration resistance or immunity short of a specifically cast spell resistance or things that make you resistant or immune to all spells, like antimagic or spell resistance; 2) a creature that reaches 0 with disintegrate is dusted, not simply dying; 3) a dusted creature requires a resurrection at 10K gold (or more) to recover, assuming the dust is recoverable, 25K gold (or more) if not (better hope the meanie DM doesn't follow up with a gust of wind.

So, how does that maximized scorching ray compare again? I'm not against scorching ray, my rogue runs around with a wand of empowered scorching ray (11th-caster level).

I don't pull punches against my PCs. If the beholder last night wouldn't have missed his touch attack against the rogue, said rogue would be dead, although the pile of dust would have remained intact. But it still would have been a significant financial setback to the PCs.

(My beholder had an unhappy encounter )

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Well, sure, if the DM decides to take it easy on the PCs, there's no problem with Disintegrate. But if the DM is going to take it easy on the PCs, there's no problem with any spell in any book out there.

I'm just talking strictly by the rules, here.

I was talking about the "the BBEG will want to kill someone real quick" part. If DMs did that all the time, D&D's kill rates would probably beat CoC's

 

[Grog]

All your examples fit into the exception I mentioned: Creatures with high con scores and great fort saves.

Well, the vast majority of high CR monsters fall into this category. It's not the exception, it's the rule.

They're going to likely make the saving throw anyway, so who cares what happens on a failed saving throw?

A cloud giant has a +16 Fort save; an 11th level wizard could get the DC on his Disintegrate spell to 25-26 fairly easily. It is entirely possible that the cloud giant could fail that save.

But anyway, my main point was that if they thought Disintegrate shouldn't be a save-or-die spell, changing it so it would do enough damage to kill half the PCs out there is a pretty poor way to fix it.

 

[Grog]

I was talking about the "the BBEG will want to kill someone real quick" part. If DMs did that all the time, D&D's kill rates would probably beat CoC's

True enough

 

[jgsugden]

Well, the vast majority of high CR monsters fall into this category. It's not the exception, it's the rule.

A cloud giant has a +16 Fort save; an 11th level wizard could get the DC on his Disintegrate spell to 25-26 fairly easily. It is entirely possible that the cloud giant could fail that save.

But anyway, my main point was that if they thought Disintegrate shouldn't be a save-or-die spell, changing it so it would do enough damage to kill half the PCs out there is a pretty poor way to fix it.

The vast majority? No.. I just ran down the list by CR in the back of the 3.5 MM. It looks closer to 50-50 than I thought. Not a vast majority by any stretch of the imagination. When you consider encounters with larger numbers of less powerful creatures, you'll find that far more than 50% of your foes will be instantly destroyed with one failed save versus a disintegrate spell.

A reasonable, standard, 11th level wizard casting disintegrate will have a 22 int (16 base, +2 raises, +4 enhancement bonus) and perhaps spell focus. That gives him a DC of (10 + 6 for int + 6 for level + a possible 2 for spell focus) 22 to 24. To make a save versus DC 22 or 24, that giant needs to roll a 6 or 8. 25% or 35% chance to fail. If the wizard instead used a hold monster, he would up the chances by 25% (50% to 60% failure). If he used a reflex save spell against the giant, the chances go up by a further 20% (70% to 80%). The disintegrate is a bad choice to use. That was my point.

As for disintegrate killing half the PCs out there, it may deal enough damage to do it if everything goes poorly for the PC, but that does not mean it is a signficant threat. It certainly doesn't kill better than in 3.0. A PC with a reasonable con score and a strong fort save can take a disintegrate and keep on going. A rogue, wizard or cleric can easily have a pretty good touch AC (14 to 18). A standard NPC wizard (via the DMG) should have a DC19 for his disintegrate spell and a range touch attack of +8. The combined odds of 1.) The target PC having few enough HPs that a disintegrate is likely to kill him (when fully healed), 2.) the target PC being hit by the ranged touch attack, and 3.) the target PC failing his fort save is pretty low, regardless of the class of the PC. It is still a scary proposition, but far from the most dangerous thing the PC is likely to face.

 

[Darklone]

I did NOT mean to pull punches on the PCs. But I expect the PC wizard to stay out of range or in cover against the disintegrate, otherwise he WILL be dead.

Barbarians OTOH have a tendency to be targets. Sure, there might be a better spell to cast on him, but if that's the highest level spell the BBEG has prepared and the barbarian has a good chance to fail and will probably have to stop to mow through the mooks.... then I'll cast on him.