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Disney Star Wars Is It Actually That Bad?

Celebrim

Legend
FWIW, you could say the same thing about Kylo Ren. They made him a Darth Vader avatar, even when it made no sense to do so.

I could put up with the fact that Kylo Ren is a Darth Vader fanboy or that Kylo Ren has unexplained skills in his background.

What I couldn't put up with is that nothing internal to the movies really ever explains any of Kylo Ren's motivations. We're left with the impression that he's just insane. He is literally a villain who seems to be evil for its own sake. He just snarls and chews up the scenery because that's what villains do. We're never give enough to go on with his character. And I want to compare how Kylo Ren is always a mystery to the way Vader's actions are understable like 99% of the time. With the sole exception of his weakly done 'fall' scene where one moment he's like "we got to get rid of a Sith Lord" and the next moment he's like, "screw the Jedi", the audience is always given enough internally to the movies to understand why he's doing what he's doing. When we are first introduced to Vader, he's not that complicated. He's a loyal cog in the Evil Empire, one of its top lieutenants, but clearly a respected soldier and a servant of the mysterious Emperor in the background. We can understand Vader's apparent motivations by his relationship to other members of the Imperial military, and he fits snugly into the archetype of "The Black Knight". In fact, just in case you might miss it, he's literally given a black suit of armor and and a fearsome samurai helmet. And if that wasn't enough, we get little bits of exposition like, "He was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil." Our understanding of Vader as an audience starts solid and stays solid even as unexpected aspects of his character are revealed - including literally the greatest twist reveal in cinematic history.

But Kylo Ren never is anything but a mystery and the more we learn the more inexplicable he gets. That's not clever. That's not deep writing. If there puzzle here, then a good writer knows what the answer to that puzzle is. You see, Lucas may or may not have not worked out all his plot points ahead of time, but it didn't matter because his characterization was solid anyway. Kylo Ren on the other hand has none of his plot points worked out ahead of time, but because his character is acting mysteriously and contrary to logic and reason there better be an answer - and there just isn't. Vader has motives. Palpatine has motives. Kylo Ren seems to have no more motives than a 3 year old throwing a temper tantrum and never outgrows that and the audience is never given an explanation. What does he want other than to be a villain and why does he want to be a villain? No answers.
 

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GreyLord

Legend
FWIW, you could say the same thing about Kylo Ren. They made him a Darth Vader avatar, even when it made no sense to do so.

The most obvious example of this are the bizarre scenes of Kylo Ren being a fighter pilot. Flying a spaceship is an amazingly complex job that takes years to learn. It's a major part of identity and backstory for Luke and Annakin. Why does Kylo Ren even know how to fly? He a fighter pilot only because Luke and Annakin were. Having that skill makes no sense. His custom TIE fighter makes no sense. Tactically, it makes no sense for him to fly it. None of it makes any sense. At least they managed to have Poe Dameron take the fighter pilot scenes away from Rey.

Well, not only is he related to Luke and Leia, both pretty decent pilots if the Original Trilogy has anything to say about it, he is also Han Solo's son.

Before he went to train with Luke he was probably RAISED in a cockpit flying a ship around.
 

Eric V

Hero
The mistake here isn't that this scene is in conversation with the fandom. What it is in conversation with is all of the preceding movies and Rey's own misplaced needs. It ties to the reveal about Rey's parentage, her need to be someone important. But she's not. She's nobody. Because all of that stuff she thought was so important wasn't (her need for her parents to be somebody being another flaw she has to deal with in the movie). It says that the force, or even just being a hero that the galaxy needs, doesn't have to mean being born into it. She's not some prophesied hero with a monstrous midichlorian count like Anakin, or even his son. And when this kid, this nobody, uses the force, that tells us that maybe this kid, this nobody, will be a new hero. That it could be anyone. From anywhere.

Of course, Rise of Skywalker proceeds to reverse basically every last one of those revelations and themes, which is why it's a terrible movie, but I've already established who I believe to be to blame for that. :p
I understand the point, but...hadn't it already been made countless times in the Clone Wars series? Maybe the scene was for people who only saw the movies?
 

Eric V

Hero
Hey, this is what The Last Jedi's critics wanted. I take no pleasure in any buyer's remorse they may have over it.
If I may, there are definitely some people who disliked TLJ and it had nothing to do with MarySue-ism (I hate the term), the so-called "assassination" of Luke's character (as though people don't change after trauma and even just from getting older!), etc. There are plenty of script/acting/directing reasons to not be a fan of TLJ. I certainly did not want the somehow-worse RoS.
 


dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
Disney Star Wars is not that bad, actors, special effects are awesome, the writing really doesn't pop though, it is kinda dry. It is just that there are some things that can be done in a one off, or before the characters are totally established, that does not really work in a nth installment. Like the trash compactor scene in a New Hope, it was well done, and one figured they all were not going to die, but who knew? Maybe one would. Anyways, by the later installments, that sort of suspense really wasn't there in most scenes, because you knew the characters had to survive to the next movie.

My rankings are: Empire Strikes Back, Rogue One, and A New Hope. These really have memorable parts: "That's not part of the deal Vader!" The rest not so much.
 


Celebrim

Legend
In A New Hope Vader is just a weirdo in a robot suit, that's why he's interesting. I'm not sure the Prequels improved anything by making him Space Jesus.

Actually, the Prequels don't make him Space Jesus. They only make him someone that people are inclined to believe is Space Jesus.

And the result of that belief is utter destruction.

Although thinking about it, Lucas never suggests that Anakin ever lets the idea that he is Space Jesus go to his head. It's not that that turns him into a monster. Indeed, it's Obi Wan who calls out his disappointment with his false Messiah at the end when he says, "You were the Chosen One."
 

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