D&D 5E Dispel Magic & Spellcasting Ability Check

[Horwath]

I probably did. Sage Advice is banned from my table because players always try to say some ridiculous stuff they read from Sage Advice that doesn't even make sense. So I may get defensive when people try and use Sage Advice in their argument, or when they say I'm house ruling. I run and play in stores and have to follow AL guidelines, and that being said, the game has to be fair for everyone. No one can get a proficiency bonus to initiative, so JoAT won't get it.

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It's your game as DM so you can call any shot if your players agree to that, but...

No one gets proficiency to initiative. That is general.
JoAT gets half proficiency on initiative. That is specific.

Specific always trumps general.

 

[Lanliss]

Why can't characters get a proficiency bonus to initiative? There's no rule that I know of that says that. I'm not trying to fight for the sake of fighting here, I honestly don't know of a rule that says characters can't add a proficiency bonus to initiative.

For what it is worth, I also believe that something that gives you disadvantage on ability checks ( say an exhaustion level, or being poisoned ) also gives disadvantage on Initiative checks. I am curious as to your outlook on this.

If I am not mistaken, Neo is arguing on a point of omission. Not that there is a rule that says you can't get Proficiency in Initiative, but that there is no rule that says you CAN. Please correct me if I am misrepresenting your position Neo.

 

[neogod22]

You do not allow Jack of All trades to apply to initiative, because not everyone can get it. By the PHB, only two classes can get half of their proficiency added to Initiative, by a strict reading.

My question is, Eldritch blast can only be accessed by two classes, Warlock and Bard. Do you still allow it, despite the limited number of people who have access to it?

It never says anywhere you get to add your proficiency to initiative. There's no initiative skill, and monsters don't get modified initiatives based off of proficiency, it's only based off of your DEX modifier.

Eldritch Blast is only on the Warlocks Spell list, so it is normally restricted to Warlocks unless there is something that allows you to take a cantrip from any class, in which the few instances it says it specifically, for example the Spell Sniper feat allows you to add a free attack roll cantrip, this will allow a wizard for example to take Eldritch Blast.

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[Lucas Blackstone]

I will just agree to disagree. It's all good. It won't be the first time, and it won't be the last. Happy gaming all!

 

[Lanliss]

It never says anywhere you get to add your proficiency to initiative. There's no initiative skill, and monsters don't get modified initiatives based off of proficiency, it's only based off of your DEX modifier.

Eldritch Blast is only on the Warlocks Spell list, so it is normally restricted to Warlocks unless there is something that allows you to take a cantrip from any class, in which the few instances it says it specifically, for example the Spell Sniper feat allows you to add a free attack roll cantrip, this will allow a wizard for example to take Eldritch Blast.

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Oh yes, I forgot about the spell sniper, ignore that point then. The rest of your post however leads right back to what I have been saying the whole time. I know there is not an Initiative skill, but the Bards ability does not say "skills" at all. It says ability checks, and Initiative is an ability check. On page 7 of the PHB it describes the three basic uses for the d20, Attacks, saving throws, and Ability Checks. It then goes on to say that class abilities can affect these three, so there is no reason for JoAT to not apply, by RAW. Since JoAT specifies Ability checks, and Initiative is not an Attack roll or a Saving throw so it must be an Ability check, JoAT must apply to initiative, unless it is ruled that Initiative does not count as an ability check. It is perfectly fine to rule in such a way, and hardly game breaking, but it is simply not RAW.

 

[neogod22]

If I am not mistaken, Neo is arguing on a point of omission. Not that there is a rule that says you can't get Proficiency in Initiative, but that there is no rule that says you CAN. Please correct me if I am misrepresenting your position Neo.

Right, but if you have questions about good thing to do is look at monsters with a CR level around your characters, you will notice that they also don't use proficiency for initiative either. And no the poisoned condition does not say you have disadvantage on initiative, just attack rolls and ability checks.

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[Lanliss]

Right, but if you have questions about good thing to do is look at monsters with a CR level around your characters, you will notice that they also don't use proficiency for initiative either. And no the poisoned condition does not say you have disadvantage on initiative, just attack rolls and ability checks.

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How many monsters at CR 2 or under are 2nd level Bards, and how many of CR 7 or under are 7th level fighters? These are specific class abilities, not something any random monster can throw on. Just like how monsters are not throwing around Portents or Destroy undead.

 

[Horwath]

Right, but if you have questions about good thing to do is look at monsters with a CR level around your characters, you will notice that they also don't use proficiency for initiative either. And no the poisoned condition does not say you have disadvantage on initiative, just attack rolls and ability checks.

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It does not need to state that you have disadvantage on initiative because it is already stated in disadvantage on ability checks.

 

[neogod22]

How many monsters at CR 2 or under are 2nd level Bards, and how many of CR 7 or under are 7th level fighters? These are specific class abilities, not something any random monster can throw on. Just like how monsters are not throwing around Portents or Destroy undead.

You want to know how to solve this problem? I just used the character creator app and made a lvl 2 bard. It did not add the +1 to initiative.

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[TheCosmicKid]

It never says anywhere you get to add your proficiency to initiative. There's no initiative skill, and monsters don't get modified initiatives based off of proficiency, it's only based off of your DEX modifier.

All of this is true, but I don't see how any of it is relevant to the question of JoAT. JoAT says you get to add half your proficiency to all ability checks. Not "all ability checks which somebody else might be able to apply their proficiency to", all ability checks. Initiative is determined by a Dexterity check. Thus, JoAT applies to it.

Beyond this simply being correct by the letter of the rules, there's a practical reason for it as well. The category of "all ability checks" is fixed and well defined, whereas the category of "all ability checks which somebody else might be able to apply their proficiency to" is in flux. There doesn't happen to be any class feature or feat or magic item (that I'm aware of) which allows a character to add their proficiency to their initiative, but WoTC could print one or your DM could homebrew one at any time. Just look at the dispel check that's the actual topic of this thread. Normally, you can't add your proficiency to it. But there happens to be one class feature -- the abjurer ability -- which lets you do just that. If the abjurer subclass didn't exist or had a different ability at that level, dispel checks would not be in the category "all ability checks which somebody else etc.". But because the abjurer exists, they are. Doesn't it seem strange that what a bard can do should be dependent on the existence or nonexistence of a subclass that has nothing to do with bards?