Dispute.

[Axel]

That's a pretty hefty reading comprehension failure on the part of your friend. My suggestion: Hit him with the book. It's an auto-confirmed critical if you manage to make contact with the corner rather than one of the flat sides.

 

[Talonblaze]

Basically put it to him this way;
The entry noted about the Meta Shadow feats being identical also aids your case.

Secondly Metamagic or metamagic changing feats always specify what effect they have on the slots, even if it is none. For instance some feats in such cases do say:
"The spell slot level is not affected." Or close to it.
Just because it lacks the entry does not mean it can be ignored unless there is no other entries to replace it, like the one noted above.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Secondly Metamagic or metamagic changing feats always specify what effect they have on the slots, even if it is none. For instance some feats in such cases do say:
"The spell slot level is not affected." Or close to it.

This is true. For instance, the Sudden Quicken feat says...

Benefit: Once per day, you can apply the effect of the Quicken Spell feat to any spell you cast without increasing the level of the spell or specially preparing it ahead of time. You can still use Quicken Spell normally.

 

[Dross]

"Metashadow Feats function identically to Metamagic feats in all ways not specifically contradicted herein,"

Given this I would ask your friend what bit of the text contradicts the metamagic feat to allow him to cast without a level adjustment.

Ask him to explain his reasoning. Then you can specifically refute his point rather than saying "nope, wrong"

 

[emoplato]

As others have implied you should show him the book and clamp his face in it for unfound power gaming. In a way he is right but it clearly only applies to shadowcaster mysteries, not other spells, and it is only once a day and still takes a full round action to cast with. As for quickened mystery sure he can take it but it takes three metashadow feats to get and seven for another use.

 

[Dragonwriter]

Wait... you want to knock down the Shadowcaster's already-crappy power?

The metashadow feats sidebar could really be interpreted either way. Metamagic feats invariably spell out exactly what effect they have on a spell's level and they have unlimited usage. Metashadow feats, on the other hand, have no slot adjustment listed, but are limited by the day (thus making them more akin to the Sudden Metamagic feats, none of which have a slot adjustment).

I understand where you see the "function identically to metamagic feats" clause as leading to a slot adjustment, but you should also consider the implications of further reducing the power of an already-weak class. The Shadowcaster is still quite limited in their abilities and Metashadow feats are one of the few ways to make them a little less crappy, if there is no Mystery Level Adjustment. If you do increase the level for the 1/day use of Empower, you are essentially slapping down the Shadowcaster just for kicks.

 

[xigbar]

Wait... you want to knock down the Shadowcaster's already-crappy power?

The metashadow feats sidebar could really be interpreted either way. Metamagic feats invariably spell out exactly what effect they have on a spell's level and they have unlimited usage. Metashadow feats, on the other hand, have no slot adjustment listed, but are limited by the day (thus making them more akin to the Sudden Metamagic feats, none of which have a slot adjustment).

I understand where you see the "function identically to metamagic feats" clause as leading to a slot adjustment, but you should also consider the implications of further reducing the power of an already-weak class. The Shadowcaster is still quite limited in their abilities and Metashadow feats are one of the few ways to make them a little less crappy, if there is no Mystery Level Adjustment. If you do increase the level for the 1/day use of Empower, you are essentially slapping down the Shadowcaster just for kicks.

I didn't say it was fair, I'm saying it doesn't make sense to me based on the way it's written. If you'll read earlier, you'll notice that I acknowledge the flaws of the class.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Since after reading the responses you've gotten, people seem still a little fuzzy, I say you and your friend settle this like real men.

Roll up level 20 characters, have a 3rd person serve as DM judge, and duke it out. Whoever lives, wins the argument.

This is how all disputes should be handled.

 

[xigbar]

Since after reading the responses you've gotten, people seem still a little fuzzy, I say you and your friend settle this like real men.

Roll up level 20 characters, have a 3rd person serve as DM judge, and duke it out. Whoever lives, wins the argument.

This is how all disputes should be handled.

We meet in front of the Alamo at High Noon.

 

[Dragonwriter]

I didn't say it was fair, I'm saying it doesn't make sense to me based on the way it's written.

And I'm saying it could be seen either way. I get where both you and your friend are coming from. And if you look at the Sudden Metamagic feats (considered Metamagic feats), you'll see they are functionally identical to the Metashadow feats. While the wording of the Metashadow sidebar leaves a bit to be desired and obviously is unclear enough to allow this dispute, looking at various pieces of evidence and alternatives is still warranted.

If you'll read earlier, you'll notice that I acknowledge the flaws of the class.

Where did you get the impression I hadn't read the rest of this thread? Did it occur to you I was, perhaps, reinforcing or restating a valid point?

I'm also noticing how you seem to dismiss my post and the points therein, apparently based on the assumption that I didn't read the other replies (an incorrect assumption, I might add).