Divinations...something that has always irked me

[MerakSpielman]

This is one of my problems though - when I custom create "anti-scrying devices" and "divination shields", the players will argue that I'm being unfair and severly limiting the use of the divinations that they struggled so hard to earn. They feel that by inundating the campaign world with counter measures, I'm nullifying the worth of the spells.

If you didn't make it clear up front that you didn't like divinations, I'd feel exactly the same way.

The trick is not to make plots that can be unraveled with a divination or three. If you're dead-set on doing mystery/conspiracies, you could make a plot that's so convoluted that none of the people involved really know what's going on. If everybody has misinformation, divinations about who did what and why are going to provide skewed results.

The other way to reduce the shattering effect of divinations is to avoid mystery and conspiracy and instead make simple, straightforward plots. Divinations supply accurate information, but even so, the information is nothing special.

The third way, and this is where it starts getting really sneaky, is to make adventures that require divination to solve. This tactic is the most difficult, but well worth it if you can figure out a way to pull it off. If you have a mystery/conspiracy, then make the clues only findable via divinations. No witnesses, etc...

Also, the best divinations require xp to cast. No big deal every now and then, but parties would do well not to get too addicted to such spells.

Having PCs with such capability is unnerving, since they have potential to destroy your best-layed plans. I mentioned this recently in another thread, but your PCs might be reaching the point where they create the stories of which they are a part, and you only act as the referee. From now on, you can't expect things to go the way you plan, but the players will be having a great time being creative.

 

[Piratecat]

Fathead, I feel exactly the opposite from how you do. I run a very political campaign, and divinations are a key and expected component of that society. People do auguries before business deals, they try to scry enemies, they use all sorts of sneaky tricks. The use of the spell Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum is fairly common upon people at risk, and some absolutely wonderful political adventures can be based around these premises.

Part of the secret to not ruining your game is to expect that the PCs will use divinations. Then occasionally build in some misleading clues or some complicated NPCs in order to make the game more exciting. Remember, in a political world an opponent might be able to be easily defeated in combat by the PCs. . . but if they're well-connected, the PCs have to be VERY cautious about touching them.

 

[LordAO]

One thing to keep in mind when using magic is that it is not foolproof. There is always some means to defend against it, whether with saving throws or magic of their own. There are plenty of spells which protect against divination magic in particular, and I believe in 3.5 edition scrying has a will save to defend against it. And of course there is the almighty Mind Blank spell, which even the mightiest Gods are powerless to penetrate (Communion will provide nothing if your diety doesn't know the answer).

Of course, be careful that you don't go overboard with this either. If you provide every enemy with these types of spells and every clue is perfectly hidden, you will make Divination absoultely pointless. The key to good DMing is to find the right balance.

 

[Saeviomagy]

But, it all still falls apart in instances...take, for example, a murder mystery in the local tavern. One of the local patrons is suspect, and the PCs are asked to investigate. Alright, judicious use of ESP, and the PCs are home before dinner - no need to call in Sherlock Holmes on this one!

ESP (aka detect thoughts I presume?) allows a saving throw. Creatures which succeed at the saving throw are immune to that casting of the spell. Further to that it requires 18 seconds of non-moving concentration to get to the 'read surface thoughts' level. Each casting will require 18 seconds of waiting before it can be ascertained who's thoughts you're listening to. Finally, the murderer would have to be actively thinking about the murder to be shown to be the murderer. Even if someone walks up to the guy and says "Are you the murderer?" may not necessarily think "yes". He might think "the bastard deserved it".

Although the guys worst enemy might think that regardless of whether he's the murderer or not.

It's not really that practical unless the target is unaware of your presence, and is motionless. Great for interrogating a captive, lame for hoping that you stumble across the murderer.

 

[coyote6]

Once the murderer is discovered, it's all over from there...just interrogate the murderer, get all of the morbid details, and find all of the clues that would normally be there.

How does interrogating the murderer get you any closer to proving he did it, if he didn't leave any clues that he knows about? Sure, an extremely intensive interrogation might trip him up or force him to fess up -- but extremely intensive interrogations have been known to end up with innocent people confessing to things they didn't do, just to get out of the interrogation (even without torture, this apparently happens).

Knowing may be half the battle, but it's still only half.

Don't forget modify memory, either. It would probably only take one very public, very messy mistake to get the PCs in very deep trouble, or at least get them to think twice about relying on detect thoughts. Have a bard modify someone important's kid's memory, to make them remember committing the crime, and arrange to get the PCs to scan the kid's memory.

Smart criminals can be just as crafty as the PCs, and it's those guys that people need experts like a group of PCs to catch.

 

[Dogbrain]

I nerf divinations, but in ways that the PCs can use to their advantage (with appropriate knowledge) and that make "sense" from a magical standpoint.

For example, one of the low-power divinations that can be used to find somebody simply won't work across natural running surface water. Anybody with a bit of Spellcraft is likely to know this. However, if you re-cross that water, you can be found again.

As for "direct contact with the gods" divination, I use the following rules of thumb:

If it has to do with clerics of that deity, those who have power from that deity, or is on ground holy with that deity, lots of detail, lots of information. (Nasty, sneaky deities can mask this, of course.) If it involves the same for a divine enemy of deity, very little information beyond "It is beyond my ken". If it is in the mind of one of the deity's followers, the information can be had. Otherwise, it's very spotty and dependent upon the deity's own portfolio.

 

[shilsen]

Once the murderer is discovered, it's all over from there...just interrogate the murderer, get all of the morbid details, and find all of the clues that would normally be there.

This isn't something that actually happened in one of my adventures, but it DID happen in another (in fact, I helped to bring this adventure to a very short end...a 4 hour event turned into a 20 minutes adventure).

It's only all over if you have a number of factors in play, one being a dumb murderer, who's incapable of cleaning up after himself. A competent killer will have disposed of the clues and probably have a good alibi. The divination does diddley-squat for dealing with those issues. Unless the PCs are actually part of the local law enforcement, they will have no right no interrogate, search, detain, or do anything else to suspects.

Divinations don't need to be nerfed. All that needs to be done is have the NPCs in your world aware of the fact that divinations exist (in the core D&D setting, everybody who hasn't lived in a cave for a few million years knows that they do) and act accordingly.

 

[Dirigible]

Evidence? Evidence?

I take it no one uses a more... realistic (read, arbitrary and magisterial) system of law enforcement in their campaigns?

 

[jasper]

gods are all powerful, all knowing, all caring, Choose 0, 1 or 2.

Divs are nice but as other have said they can be counter plus few gods can see into the exact future so there a problem.

 

[Dirt]

Fathead, I feel exactly the opposite from how you do. I run a very political campaign, and divinations are a key and expected component of that society. People do auguries before business deals, they try to scry enemies, they use all sorts of sneaky tricks. The use of the spell Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum is fairly common upon people at risk, and some absolutely wonderful political adventures can be based around these premises.

Part of the secret to not ruining your game is to expect that the PCs will use divinations. Then occasionally build in some misleading clues or some complicated NPCs in order to make the game more exciting. Remember, in a political world an opponent might be able to be easily defeated in combat by the PCs. . . but if they're well-connected, the PCs have to be VERY cautious about touching them.

To some extent, I have already provided a means to subvert attempts to completely ruin attempts at intrigue, and their adventures even lead them to a city where political intrigue was the norm. For quite some time (2-3 years in real time, I think), the group has been in an underdark smuggling port called Jeruport. The city itself existed in a null magic zone (although, some of the city was outside of the null magic). In that case, there was no room to complain about divinations not working. Every person belonged to a faction (or multiple factions), all working toward their own interests. I have one NPC named "the Collector" whose entire purpose is to gather information and extort money out of people. Fun stuff.

Now they have returned to the surface world (partly because they are tired of the paranoia), and use divinations like a once-a-day vitamin (sometimes twice a day). I wish I HAD thought about using auguries for every business deal, but I started this campaign world when I was 17 (I'm 29 now), and I didn't examine every nuance (although I did switch editions along the way). I would like to keep some continuity, and switching to something like that would have to be a more gradual change. Thankfully, they are now travelling to unknown parts, so I may have the opportunity to start introducing such concepts without disrupting the story.