Divinations...something that has always irked me

[WizarDru]

I'll also scoff at this 'evidence' thing. And of course 'might makes right'! When's the last time the party arrested the marauding orcs and held a trial for them by their peers? I'm no authority, but way back when, I'd be willing to bet that evidence was mostly witnesses and lacks of alibis. Physical evidence wasn't all that common, I'm willing to bet. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if trials were 'guilty until proven innocent', which happens in advanced countries even today. Sir Harry says serf Don raped his maid, then Don better start praying, cuz I bet 'the court' won't believe Don's family when they protest. "Of course you'd deny that Don commited a crime, you're his family!"

You, my friend, need a copy of Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe. You'd be suprised at what rights the peasantry did and didn't have, modern Hollywood portrayls aside.

As for the question of low level groups, well, that really depends on what you're talking about. Divination magic isn't really a relevant force up until you get to around 9th level, at least. Certainly not in the same discussion as the Beholder-Mage who's head of the thieves guild. If you're talking about 10th-level characters dealing with 5th level thieves...well, they should be kicking their butts, divination magic or no. Spells and abilities like detect evil and zone of truth, in addtion to having been discussed to death, aren't nearly as reliable as something like commune, and spells like misdirection and undetectable alignment easily foil such things. Low-level flunkies of a powerful organization could get these before dispatched on a mission, for example....especially with a rogue's UMD ability, scrolls become an effective tool.

 

[LostSoul]

This got me thinking about some neat campaign elements.

You could have a guild of assasins that everyone knows about who contracts kills. I could see something like that happening in a world with divinations and raise dead spells.

You're also going to want to keep your hands clean. So you use Change Self or Disguise and then slap a Charm or high Diplomacy on some guy in order to get him to do what you want. When the good guys find out what happened, they've got no link to you.

I like Divinations in general. I think that there are too few of them, and that they're not powerful enough!

 

[MerakSpielman]

You're also going to want to keep your hands clean. So you use Change Self or Disguise and then slap a Charm or high Diplomacy on some guy in order to get him to do what you want. When the good guys find out what happened, they've got no link to you.

And don't forget your local bard for Modify Memory! It's a doozy.

 

[Psion]

Sure, I can use magic, fickle gods, deception, and vagueness to defeat them, but then what's the point in using them?

I think I pointed this out quite plainly earlier, and authors like Monte Cook and Bruce Cordell point this out repetitively:

Don't deny the PCs their resources. Require them. Allow (and make) them to use their abilities to get the key clues, but don't have it be the solution.

Frex, someone was murdered. You use detect thoughts and find the perpetrator. He was hired by a man who he always met in situations where he sat on the other side of a barrier. So, the players have discovered the agent, but not the mastermind, and they have more work to do that detect thoughts isn't going to unveil.

Or, you use detect thoughts and zone of truth to get a chamber maid to reveal that she saw her lover slipping into the kings chambers before he was slain, but using the same spells on the supposed killer reveals he is innocent. This is an important clue, but only part of the puzzle. Who disguised themselves as this man and why?

Despite getting the same sort of advice multiple times, the holdouts still remain unconvinced it seems. It seems to me in that case you really don't want to be playing this game, at least not for mysteries. If doing the sometime challenging (yet rewarding) mental task of working with the system instead of trying to pretend you aren't playing a game with a good deal of magic in it, perhaps you need to try another game where your tastes are better met if you wish to run this sort of mystery without doing the work.

 

[Angcuru]

I like the game to be as novel-like as possible(which is never attained with my current group, but i like them to be this way nonetheless), and as such have an extreme dislike for such things as powerful divinations, raising the dead, and all that.

If you need to discover something, what's the point of going through all the dramatic and entertaining detective work and drama when you can just go *ZAP* "Ok, He did it in the Study with the +3 Dire Flail."?

If the characters can be brought back to life any given time they die, it takes away the whole fear of death and somewhat lessens the bond within the group. "Oh, Frank got his skull caved in AGAIN? *sigh* Alright, to the temple we go."

 

[smetzger]

I like the game to be as novel-like as possible(which is never attained with my current group, but i like them to be this way nonetheless), and as such have an extreme dislike for such things as powerful divinations, raising the dead, and all that.

If you need to discover something, what's the point of going through all the dramatic and entertaining detective work and drama when you can just go *ZAP* "Ok, He did it in the Study with the +3 Dire Flail."?

If the characters can be brought back to life any given time they die, it takes away the whole fear of death and somewhat lessens the bond within the group. "Oh, Frank got his skull caved in AGAIN? *sigh* Alright, to the temple we go."

If thats the way you feel then I would strongly recommend a different game system, only playing levels 1-8, or re-working the high magic assumed D&D setting.

 

[Hand of Evil]

This is the power of religon in your game, divinations can be blocked by other gods (or at least provide a devine level to overcome) and you can let your players know by 'giving to' a church offers you those protections. This is more than lip services, this is visit holy sites, praying at sunset, following the 'word' of your god. It does not mean you have to be a cleric but it does mean you empower your clerics and don't just have them as fighters that can heal.

Laws - in a game you can have a number of different types of laws, civil, guild, or church. Just which one does the divination spell fall? Does it break any law? Would the merchant guild want someone to have access to prices, profit, routes?

 

[Kestrel]

*laugh* Well, yeah, it does allow a saving throw. But, if you have room full of suspects, anyone who opts for a saving throw is immediately a suspect.

"Hmmmm...won't allow us to read your mind, eh? Throw 'im in the other room with the other two. Congratulations champ! You just made our suspect list."

I can't see any NPC submitting to magic being cast on them unless they trust the caster. How does he know that his mind is being read? What if the caster is casting a curse on him? What if it will hurt? NPCs aren't simply going to roll over submit to whatever spells the caster wants to cast on him.

Speaking of Detect Evil, I once had a paladin who was a bit overzealous in his smiting of Evil and use of his holy ability. An evil wizard, deciding to teach him the error of his ways, cast Misdirection on an acolyte in the Paladin's church, using the wizard's own evil aura as the displayed alignment. The paladin, seeing an evil acolyte, according to detect evil, smote the acolyte. Later, as a penniless fighter working in the mines, the paladin learned the error of his ways.

(Simplifed example, but it could easily be used by a spellcasting murderer to plant someone else as the murder culprit)

 

[MerakSpielman]

You gotta love Misdirection! The only function of that spell is to thwart divination, so I see it being as common in political circles as Magic Missile is in combat. Coupled with an Undetectable Aura spell, what schemer would be without one?

 

[CombatWombat51]

You, my friend, need a copy of Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe.

Anyone wanna buy me a Christmas gift?

I think I pointed this out quite plainly earlier, and authors like Monte Cook and Bruce Cordell point this out repetitively:

Don't deny the PCs their resources. Require them. Allow (and make) them to use their abilities to get the key clues, but don't have it be the solution.

Despite getting the same sort of advice multiple times, the holdouts still remain unconvinced it seems. It seems to me in that case you really don't want to be playing this game, at least not for mysteries. If doing the sometime challenging (yet rewarding) mental task of working with the system instead of trying to pretend you aren't playing a game with a good deal of magic in it, perhaps you need to try another game where your tastes are better met if you wish to run this sort of mystery without doing the work.

I think a divination here or there (augury) is ok, but the rest of it doesn't fit IMC.

I don't know about anyone else's games, but IMC we prefer to make the rules fit our game, not our game fit their rules.