D&D 5E Divine Casters

[Connorsrpg]

It is a pity that we are seeing very little expansion to the divine spell lists and options. I think it is a problem built into the system. As clerics, druids and paladins 'know' ALL spells on their list, then I guess people are reluctant to add more to already versatile lists.

I know people have their ways of dealing with this; things like characters having to find copies in old lore (which seems odd to me for spells granted directly from deities/divine beings/etc), get permission from GM, substitute int etc.

You can go this route, but we have a very simple method in our games (and it is one based upon how we did 3E spell lists). Beginning DMs (or others) may wish to implement this very simple idea.

Limit the spells known for each level, but let the player 'build' their spell lists. This might sound restricting with only the PHB, but if you are willing to branch out into spells from other sources it is an easy way to do things.

Generally, they get less spells, but customise their lists to the sort of character (or divine host) the player pictured. This way you can eliminate spells that just seem really odd to be casting. Like fire-worshiper casting water spells, or healing deity casting spiritual weapon etc. It also REALLY helps the player manage their spells. Sometimes the amount can be overwhelming (especially for new players).

We trialed other numbers but settled on what is below:

Full divine casters (clerics & druids) can have spell lists with the following number of spells: 12 for spell levels 1-3; 8 for spell levels 4-6; 4 for spell levels 7-9. (Spells gained from other means, such as domains, do not count towards these limits).

Half casters (paladins) can have spell lists with the following number of spells: 6 for spell levels 1-3; 3 for spell levels 4-5. (Spells gained from other means, such as oaths, do not count towards these limits).

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to mention - these numbers have NO effect on spells gained from Domains, Circles or Oaths. Any extra spells are on top of the above. This is just for reducing and personalising initial list.

EDIT 2: Ah, I forgot this crucial piece of info too. These spells are NOT chosen from any list. A cleric still chooses from the Cleric spells available. As others have stated - unique spells still come through DOmains. It is just to make list manageable whilst allowing other new cleric spells. (It obviously would have worked best if WotC had done this and were more willing to actually release cleric spells ).

Give it a go. It can be liberating, especially for new/young players that don't have to have a full list of spells (MANY of which are not used often). Also good for experienced players that really like to focus on the domains/aspects of their divine host.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I don't see a major problem with your proposal, though it might result in some analysis paralysis and some cherry-picking. If you trust your players and they're not staring at the infinity of spells slack-jawed and overwhelmed, it sounds solid.

But I think the easiest solution is the solution that 5e has as a default: Don't add cleric spells. Add domains.

Domains come with spells.

Coming up with a new domain requires less overall overhead, and limits the effects of cherry-picking spells (to two, which must be tightly thematic and not overlapping with granted powers), while honing in on an important thematic element of the character.

I'd treat druid spells similarly - new or variant lands for the Circle of the Land. Paladins? New Oaths. Rangers? No mechanic exists at the moment to give rangers bonus spells, but I could see it as another subclass.

Like, if you wanted some of the spells from the Elemental Evil PG - sounds good. Lets make an "elemental" domain. Or an "earth" domain. Or whatever.

 

[Connorsrpg]

I agree about adding domains etc, but the fact of the matter is there are MANY spells that come out that would be more appropriate to your caster than the ones initially listed in the spell lists and are not in domains but of course would suit them.

What I proposed is just an easy way to incorporate what is already out there.

But in an ideal world I agree with you. But if I worship a deity of earth and stone right now, there is not a lot there for my cleric. A DOmain for this would be great. But so would a lot more earthy spells and less of what is already in the cleric list.

 

[Connorsrpg]

Cherry picking is the idea too. It is still better than them having ALL the current cleric spells. They pick a list that better defines them. Of course, you need to be wary of adding spells from some sources, but this is the case anyway.

 

[Connorsrpg]

[MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION]. Sorry - I also forgot to mention that Domain, Circle, and Oath spells are ADDED to the above numbers. The above numbers are just for trimming and personalising initial lists.

 

[Satyrn]

Another solution would be to recreate the Spheres of Influence from AD&D. Place all the related divine spells into a dozen or so groups and then assign several groups to each deity. As you add more spells to the game, you'd add them to the groups/spheres. Over time these would bloat up of course, so then, uh . . . my brain's failing me on this part.


Something something something . . . Profit?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yeah, I think my position is just that it's not really necessary to do both, and the impact of a domain is more a surgical strike than the proposed kind of carpet-bombing scenario would be. Domains (Oaths, Circles) do the heavy lifting of a customized spell list, while still allowing a character to use the healing/buffing/divination spells that are central to the shared identity of clerics of any domain. An entirely custom spell list of a dozen spells or so would ditch the semblance of a shared coherent theme and make the class more a naked mechanical chassis for "casts whatever spells I like."

A new domain, rather than reducing the theme, anchors it - now you have a few custom spells, AND a few custom powers, AND still have the normal cleric abilities - you'll feel a lot different from, say, a sorcerer who takes most of the same spells.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I think the two solutions can be merged. I agree that different gods should have different spell lists. Why would the god of famine and plague grant create food and water and cure disease? etc. A DM could easily create or modify a domain to swap out some core cleric spells for more thematic ones, and I intend to do this for my next campaign to make the gods more unique and flavorful.

@Connorsrpg's idea of building a completely custom list sounds cool for players who like fiddling with such things. There's already a Cleric in the PHB that can cast fireball, so it probably won't be too broken (theoretically, they should build for the concept and not minmax, but these are gamers we're talking about). If the player is willing to do the extra homework, I would definitely give them the option.

I have some specific questions and comments, though:

Full divine casters (clerics & druids) can have spell lists with the following number of spells: 12 for spell levels 1-3...

Does this mean they have 12 level 1 spells, 12 level 2 spells, and 12 level 3 spells? Or does it mean they can have (for example) 4 level 1 spells, 4 level 2 spells, and 4 level 3 spells? I'm guessing the latter. That seems like it would get weird if you only know 4 1st-level spells, since a typical 1st-level cleric can prepare 4 spells, and a 2nd-level cleric can prepare 5 (the maximum possible being 6 and 7 respectively, so there should be at least that many spells available).

Also, am I correct that in this system, the player has to pick 2nd- and 3rd-level spells long before they are able to cast them?

I think it would make more sense for each spell level (or just 1st-level) to have a fixed number. So a 1st-level cleric can just pick that many 1st-level spells and get going.

 

[Celtavian]

I'd like more domains. So many are inappropriate to the deities listed. Some elemental domains would be nice. Maybe an alternate Death domain for non-evil death gods.

 

[Li Shenron]

It is a pity that we are seeing very little expansion to the divine spell lists and options. I think it is a problem built into the system. As clerics, druids and paladins 'know' ALL spells on their list, then I guess people are reluctant to add more to already versatile lists.

I like your proposal because it's very simple.

In 3ed at some point we started to have some fun with class and rules variants (in my main gaming group), and one of them was in fact to have all caster classes in the game learn spells either like a Sorcerer (fixed number) or a Wizard (fixed number + costly option to scribe more). We also let domain spells always be on top of the fixed number.

I don't think there is much reason for still having classes that automatically know all the spells in their list, either than tradition. In 5e we got a newcomer to the "pick your spells known" club, and that's the Ranger, who in 3e was like all other divine casters.

Granted, in 5e it's not a big deal since we get so little supplementary material anyway, but for us in 3e it did become a problem with the flood of spells from supplements. I really think that "know all the spells in the list" was detrimental once hundreds of divine spells were available for a variety of reasons:

1) A savvy Cleric/Druid player was always just a long rest away from potentially any capability
2) Beginner players were overwhelmed already by the PHB list
3) All Clerics felt too similar

so our house rule helped these because beginners would just pick something like 3 new known spells per level (more at 1st), the Cleric was not anymore the "I can do anything... tomorrow" character, and there was a HUGE difference between clerics of different deities & domains to the point that a lot of players started to want to play clerics just because their identities were strengthened (although we also re-designed the domains and stripped the "generic cleric spells list" of all but the really generic spells -> and key uber spells like Heal and Harm became domain-only).