D&D 5E Divine Casters

[Li Shenron]

I don't see a major problem with your proposal, though it might result in some analysis paralysis and some cherry-picking. If you trust your players and they're not staring at the infinity of spells slack-jawed and overwhelmed, it sounds solid.

Isnt' that the same with Sorcerers and Wizards tho? And they even have a longer list.

I think it depends on the player:

- One player may be paralize by having to cherry-picking, knowing that she'll be stuck with her choice until next level. The bright side is that after the choice is made, there is little to think about for a while.
- Another player may instead take ages when preparing spells, going through the whole list each time there's a long rest.

But I think the easiest solution is the solution that 5e has as a default: Don't add cleric spells. Add domains.

...

I'd treat druid spells similarly - new or variant lands for the Circle of the Land. Paladins? New Oaths. Rangers? No mechanic exists at the moment to give rangers bonus spells, but I could see it as another subclass.

Like, if you wanted some of the spells from the Elemental Evil PG - sounds good. Lets make an "elemental" domain. Or an "earth" domain. Or whatever.

That's also an awesome idea, but I seriously doubt that WotC would do it. They'd just add new spells to the main Cleric list. At least we know it's not going to happen very often anyway.

BTW the Ranger already doesn't automatically know all spells on her list.

 

[Mephista]

I started this rule for Sorcerers at my table, but expanded it out for any caster (with the exception of wizard). If it fits the theme of your subclass, you can have access to specific spells. That means that a red-dragon sorcerer could get Summon Elemental (restricted to fire) since red dragons actually surround their lairs with fire elementals. A Trickster Cleric could get some more illusion spells. And so on.

I don't include wizard because of how spellbooks work. And they already get pretty much everything that's thematic for their subclasses as it is. But Sorcerers (especially with the Favored Soul) definitely have an issue, and I'm looking at the new Undying Light warlock as another that has spell list issues.

 

[SkidAce]

I actually use the method listed in the initial post, with a caveat. Lore, scrolls, special teaching, fortuitous benefits, etc.

Clerics know all the spells in the PHB. Any new spells are NOT automatically added to this list.

I view it as you are receiving the "power" from your deity, and the PHB spells are the commonly known, and "easiest", most prevalent manifestations of divine power.


Specialty spells can be found written on the walls of ancient caverns by meditating clerics of days of yore, or a certain order of clerics may know the secrets of a few unique spells that define their faith.

Divine casters could learn these new spells, or find their faith incompatible with the new spell, and be unable to learn it.

 

[Connorsrpg]

[MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION]. Yeah we experimented with several methods in 3E too In the end we didn't want to make the divine casters the exact same as others.

In fact, in our last 3e spell lists (which were huge) we actually assigned 'Descriptors' to all spells. They were also divided into 3 levels of rarity (Both ideas from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed.) Then depending upon who/what you worshiped, you constructed your list that way.

For eg a Fire cleric got all Simple Divine spells and those with the Fire descriptor. But we have Celerity etc.

In the end you still ended up with large lists, but they were built to suit.

For 5E, we just wanted to keep it simple, but as also want to be able to sub in more appropriate spells from 3rd party publishers (and House spells). So, we just went with a number.

 

[Greg K]

In 3e, I as the DM, gave clerics a spell list based upon the following:
a) an All list that applied to all clerics. It dealt with communicating with one's deity, bestowing/removing curses, summoning a creature associated with the deity (Examples of spells include: augury, remove curse, lesser planar ally/planar ally/greater planar ally(each ally was a specific type of creature associated with the deity and had 1 or more templates applied)
b) 3 domains associated with the deity (although, I modified most of the domains in the phb)
c) 1 domain associated with good or evil.

 

[Connorsrpg]

WHoah, sorry everyone. I don't think I made something explicitly clear in the OP. (I have since added as an EDIT).

These spells are still chosen from the class's list. It is NOT a free for all. Domain/Circle/Oath spells are still the way to bring in spells from other lists.

For example, a cleric chooses 12 spells from 1st Level Cleric Spells List. So yes, it is actually narrowing down the numbers known, BUT, it allows them to choose from other CLERIC spells from others sources. So a little less versatility to build a better/conceptual/manageable list.

This is an easy way to craft lists without having to work out complete Domains that have their own other rulings (and you can only have 1). It is simply a simple way to allow Clerics to have other Cleric spells when they become available.

And for who asked. Yes this is 12 x 1st level spells; then 12 x 2nd level spells (not chosen until they get access to them); etc

 

[Connorsrpg]

[MENTION=5038]Greg K[/MENTION]. SOunds similar to how we used to do things too. You could mess around with all of that again, but I just presented this as a much easier option. I spend a LONG time on domains/specific lists etc for divine casters. Mainly b/c I had spent so long on the Gods, BUT most of this went unused.

I now just tell players, pick whatever 12 spells you want from the Cleric spells available, keeping in mind your deity, but I don't limit their versatility. So basically the Cleric list still is the ALL sphere Domain spells bring in a few extras from other lists

 

[Connorsrpg]

My main point also, is with a system like this then DMs and WotC would not be reluctant to actually expands the number of cleric spells. I mean, how many new official cleric spells have there been? Isn't the number about 0 since the PHB?

If we knew new spells were not going to keep adding to these exhaustive lists with no cap on spells known, then I am sure we would have seen some really good cleric and paladin spells by now. There were some elemental ones for that story path, but where were the demon-smiting spells for clerics and paladins. Or even demonic-worshipping divine casters for Out of the Abyss?

Moreso, many new players find the current 1st level lists large. It takes time to go through the list often. "What does this spell do again? Will I need it?" Narrowing this down initially is a big help.

 

[kuraban]

But I think the easiest solution is the solution that 5e has as a default: Don't add cleric spells. Add domains.

Domains come with spells.

Coming up with a new domain requires less overall overhead, and limits the effects of cherry-picking spells (to two, which must be tightly thematic and not overlapping with granted powers), while honing in on an important thematic element of the character.

Like, if you wanted some of the spells from the Elemental Evil PG - sounds good. Lets make an "elemental" domain. Or an "earth" domain. Or whatever.

This comes with two problems though that our system addresses:
1) Adding new domains does nothing to address spells that should not be thematically granted to some priests. Why does a water priest get Continual Flame as a second level spell, or Flame Strike as a 5th?
2) The mechanic of giving every cleric spell to every cleric seems likely to prevent new cleric spells to be created for fear of these spell lists exploding out of control. It would be nice to see some new spells being created to replace the ones that were not appropriate.

 

[TwoSix]

Yeah, I think my position is just that it's not really necessary to do both, and the impact of a domain is more a surgical strike than the proposed kind of carpet-bombing scenario would be. Domains (Oaths, Circles) do the heavy lifting of a customized spell list, while still allowing a character to use the healing/buffing/divination spells that are central to the shared identity of clerics of any domain. An entirely custom spell list of a dozen spells or so would ditch the semblance of a shared coherent theme and make the class more a naked mechanical chassis for "casts whatever spells I like."

A new domain, rather than reducing the theme, anchors it - now you have a few custom spells, AND a few custom powers, AND still have the normal cleric abilities - you'll feel a lot different from, say, a sorcerer who takes most of the same spells.

True, but I think the problem a lot of people have with the cleric is why two clerics of different gods have a shared identity at all. A cleric of the god of death and a cleric of the god of fire are both, ultimately, white mages with a sidebar of some fire or death abilities.