Divine Challenge (and all marks) question

[ExploderWizard]

Not quite on the second one. Isn't it about "ending your turn" adjacent to him? What, exactly, does that mean?

Yes. You must either attack or end your turn adjacent to the marked target. Since unconcious characters won't be moving, if you are currently adjacent to the marked target and it doesn't move, and nothing moves you then the mark remains. The mark can still be overridden with another one though.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, they won't be moving but being incapable of taking actions--does that mean they are incapable of having a turn, or ending it? I don't have access to my books right now, so I can't look up the details, but I'm thinking the wording is either poor or open to interpretation. To answer this RAW, we need a specific quote that defines "end your turn" and not simply that explains the end of your turn things that happen. With such a quote, I concede (RAW), but without one I would postulate that "end your turn" implies you need to take actions during your turn.

Another example, does Readying end your turn? I think that the mark would disappear (immediately) if the paladin, say, shifted away and readied to attack him if he came closer, rather than resuming when the paladin was able to attack later in the round.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Note that I'm not trying to be obstinate, but merely putting forth an academic, RAW defense to what everyone seems to agree is the RAI.

 

[ShaggySpellsword]

Would Coup de Grace even end the mark so long as the Paladin's dead corpse is next to the enemy? Can you have turns when dead? If the monster wants it off, doesn't he have to step back so he's no longer adjacent?

Another thing to consider: The Fighter 1 Daily Power, Lasting Threat marks "until the end of the encounter or until you are knocked unconscious." The unconscious clause is specifically spelled out. Does that mean that, since all marks specifically spell out in their description when they end, that marks don't end when unconscious unless specifically stated?

 

[Hypersmurf]

To answer this RAW, we need a specific quote that defines "end your turn" and not simply that explains the end of your turn things that happen. With such a quote, I concede (RAW), but without one I would postulate that "end your turn" implies you need to take actions during your turn.

So you're saying that your turn can end without you ending it?

I would have thought that "You end your turn adjacent" and "You are adjacent at the end of your turn" were pretty synonymous, myself.

And we know from the PHB that "The end of your turn always takes place, even if you’re unconscious".

Another example, does Readying end your turn? I think that the mark would disappear (immediately) if the paladin, say, shifted away and readied to attack him if he came closer, rather than resuming when the paladin was able to attack later in the round.

As far as I can tell, Readying is just a standard action. It looks like you could Ready an action, then move, then take a minor action, then end your turn... and if at some point the trigger is satisfied, you can then take the readied action as an immediate reaction.

I can't think immediately of any reason you'd want to, especially since if the trigger occurs during your turn, you can't act on it... so normally, you'd Ready at the end of your turn.

Regardless, if the Paladin readies an attack and does not end his turn adjacent, he has not fulfilled the requirement of the Challenge even if he attacks later in the round with the Readied action.

Similarly, if the Paladin has Challenged an enemy, and on his turn Delays, he'll fail to meet the Challenge requirement... because when you Delay, end-of-turn-bad-stuff happens immediately.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'm not saying it, I'm asking it. They are not entirely synonymous in concept, because one implies action and the other doesn't. It's all the difference for the question at hand.

Regarding delay, however, I'm not sure I follow. If the paladin is adjacent to the enemy he challenged and delays, is he not still adjacent?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm not saying it, I'm asking it. They are not entirely synonymous in concept, because one implies action and the other doesn't. It's all the difference for the question at hand.

Regarding delay, however, I'm not sure I follow. If the paladin is adjacent to the enemy he challenged and delays, is he not still adjacent?

Sure, but it's not given that he's adjacent when he delays.

Let's say he challenged and attacked last turn, and on the enemy's turn, the enemy shifted away.

The paladin's turn comes up, but the Warlord says "Dude, if you delay 'til after my turn, I can give you a +6!"

The paladin delays... and his End Of Turn (for bad stuff) is processed immediately. He didn't attack the enemy this turn (he delayed), and he isn't adjacent to the enemy (since he didn't move at all after the enemy shifted). Divine Challenge Fail.

-Hyp.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Considering that if you are dying, you have to make a death check on your TURN each round, it therefore makes sense that you get one. If you do get a turn then it has to end sometime.

 

[DracoSuave]

Divine Challenge is an effect with a conditional duration that is satisfied by:

'When you no longer engage the target.'

or:

'When the mark is superceded.'

Engaged is defined by:

'If, at the end of your turn, you have not attacked the target, and are not adjacent to the target.'

If you have the unconscious condition, then you can satisfy that by being adjacent to the target. Inability to take actions is not relevant to Divine Challenge. If you are stunned, for example, Divine Challenge still works fine.

Hypersmurf is also right. If you delay or ready an action when you are not adjacent, then you lose your Divine Challenge. However, that is not the case here. The ending conditions for the duration of Divine Challenge have not been met, therefore the condition does not end.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Considering that if you are dying, you have to make a death check on your TURN each round, it therefore makes sense that you get one. If you do get a turn then it has to end sometime.

I2K is not disputing that your turn ends.

He's drawing a distinction between "then end of your turn occurs" and "you end your turn".

Your turn will end regardless of your intention. But I2K is suggesting that "you end your turn" is something that requires intent on the part of the character.

I don't agree with this interpretation at all, but his reading would mean that "If, at the end of your turn, you have not attacked the target, and are not adjacent to the target" is not a valid rephrasing of "you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it", because it removes the active phrasing of "you end your turn".

-Hyp.