Divine Challenge (and all marks) question

[keterys]

Hypersmurf, you don't think taking 4 damage every 6 seconds is strenuous or counts as an interruption? Because you can't take a short rest if either of those occur.

Further, a short rest is about five minutes long, so there's no indication that the power ends until you have taken the five minutes of that short rest.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Do the effects end at the beginning or end of the short rest, which requires 5 minutes?

If it was at the end, then saying "when you take a rest (short or extended) or after 5 minutes" would be pointless, because you can never reach the end of a rest without 5 minutes having expired.

Also, from the Combat Sequence, "7. End the encounter. Repeat steps 5 and 6 until the the combatants on one side are captured, fleeing, unconscious, or dead. The encounter ends when the other side then takes a short rest or an extended rest."

If we fight a goblin and then take an extended rest, and "the encounter ends when the other side takes an extended rest", then if we assume this means the end of the rest, it means that the encounter does not end for six hours.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hypersmurf, you don't think taking 4 damage every 6 seconds is strenuous or counts as an interruption? Because you can't take a short rest if either of those occur.

You can't undertake strenuous activity during your short rest. But once you're taking the rest, you're no longer taking damage because the power has expired, so it never occurs during the rest.

Damage taken during the short rest might interrupt the short rest, but once you're taking the rest, you're no longer taking damage because the power has expired, so it never occurs during the rest.

Further, a short rest is about five minutes long, so there's no indication that the power ends until you have taken the five minutes of that short rest.

An extended rest is six hours long. Why would "wait six hours" be a condition for ending an encounter, when "wait five minutes" will kick in long before that ever occurs?

If you don't take a short rest or an extended rest, "until the end of the encounter" powers will expire after five minutes. If you do take a short rest or an extended rest, "until the end of the encounter" powers will expire immediately.

-Hyp.

 

[keterys]

Heh. So said Eladrin Fey Knight would have to just keep long range on the party taunting them to maintain the damage.

I am glad the unconsciousness would end it, at least. Nice when RAW actually supports the story

 

[Stuntman]

Honestly, I think they just forgot to include some basic text in marking in general to have all marks end when unconscious.

Otherwise you end up giving monsters incentive to beat on dying PCs and include them in area effects.

Maybe there's some rules loophole where it's desirable for the mark to persist and that's why they skipped it. And since then they've just been adding 'or until unconscious' whenever they do these encounter long marks.

I agree. Just saying that a mark ends when the creature who appied the mark becomes helpless seems reasonable to me.

 

[Markn]

Step 1: Monster walks away from fallen paladin, or coups de grace.

Step 2: Problem is solved.

Close but not quite. This works if the creature walks away. If the creature attempts to coup de grace it looks more like this:

Step 1: Coup de grace.

Step 2: Coup de grace again.

Step 3: If dead, problem solved, if still not dead, repeat step 2.

 

[Markn]

Conditional Durations: These effects last until a specified event occurs.

Until the End of the Encounter: The effect ends when you take a rest (short or extended) or after 5 minutes.

"And the fey knight is unconscious."
"Hooray!"
"Take 4 damage."
"Oh, right. We take a short rest."

As soon as you take a rest, "until the end of the encounter" effects expire.

Likewise, if the fey knight marks you then rides away, take a short rest. If he rides back and attacks, your rest is interrupted and you don't regain any encounter powers or spend any healing surges... but his 'until the end of the encounter' power has already expired.

-Hyp.

See, I see this as being the same as someone making death saves at the end of a fight. As far as I am aware, you can't take a rest while that situation is stilll happening. Once a dying person is stabilized, then you can take a short rest. Same for taking damage from a mark. If you are taking damage, no rest. End the mark, then you can rest.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you are taking damage, no rest.

Based on...?

Once "the combatants on one side are captured, fleeing, unconscious, or dead", you can take a short rest. If the Fey Knight is running away or unconscious, then "the combatants on one side are captured, fleeing, unconscious, or dead", and you meet the requirement for taking a rest to end the encounter.

-Hyp.

 

[Markn]

Based on...?

Once "the combatants on one side are captured, fleeing, unconscious, or dead", you can take a short rest. If the Fey Knight is running away or unconscious, then "the combatants on one side are captured, fleeing, unconscious, or dead", and you meet the requirement for taking a rest to end the encounter.

-Hyp.

I can't point to a specific source, and the DMG is pretty vague on it but if I am not mistaken the designers themselves have posted somewhere that an encounter does not (maybe read as shouldn't) end if someone is in a dying condition.

I can understand your skepticism but maybe some kind sould out there can find a link. I'll see if I can find it too.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Close but not quite. This works if the creature walks away. If the creature attempts to coup de grace it looks more like this:

Step 1: Coup de grace.

Step 2: Coup de grace again.

Step 3: If dead, problem solved, if still not dead, repeat step 2.

Actually, there's nothing in the RAW that states that death ends a mark either. So the one who marked you might be dead and you still would suffer the marked condition until conditions were such that it ended (which seems a bit of a quandary, as it's questionable whether a dead creature can even have an "end of your turn").

So it might actually look more like this:

1. Coup de grace paladin (paladin dies).
2. Make opportunity attack against former-paladin's ally.
3. Suffer marked penalty and radiant damage from paladin's mark.

Of course, I in no way claim that that's the intent. I believe that the RAI would have the mark end (or at least become suppressed) when the defender becomes unconscious. To me, it's the most logical approach (though I agree it isn't RAW).