Divine Challenge (and all marks) question

[Infiniti2000]

Exactly, Hyp. Is there concrete evidence countering that (admittedly stretching) interpretation? Remember, my goal was to try and defend what everyone seems to agree is the RAI. You're really good at these types of logic discussions, Hyp, so I'm counting on you to find proof one way or another!

 

[keterys]

Honestly, I think they just forgot to include some basic text in marking in general to have all marks end when unconscious.

Otherwise you end up giving monsters incentive to beat on dying PCs and include them in area effects.

Maybe there's some rules loophole where it's desirable for the mark to persist and that's why they skipped it. And since then they've just been adding 'or until unconscious' whenever they do these encounter long marks.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Honestly, I think they just forgot to include some basic text in marking in general to have all marks end when unconscious.

Otherwise you end up giving monsters incentive to beat on dying PCs and include them in area effects.

Maybe there's some rules loophole where it's desirable for the mark to persist and that's why they skipped it. And since then they've just been adding 'or until unconscious' whenever they do these encounter long marks.

Unconscious is a condition. A power might impose this condition for a specified time or until a save is made. The source of the condition, dying or through a power doesn't matter.

A rule could be used that states that the dying condition ends a mark. This would allow for separation between those at 0 hp and others who may be temporarily out of action.

 

[keterys]

Unconscious is a condition. A power might impose this condition for a specified time or until a save is made. The source of the condition, dying or through a power doesn't matter.

Sure... but how does that affect whether a mark should apply?

Everything I said still assumed a world in which Sleep, Knockout, Night Hags, and Oni Night Haunters existed, there were ways to become Unconscious other than just damage. I still don't think the intent is to encourage coup de grace or attacking downed targets, and I don't think that it makes sense for a marks to apply while the marker is unconscious.

Ie, it's not optimal if a creature is going to take radiant damage for not attacking the unconscious paladin, and it's _also_ not optimal for a paladin who (unconscious) fails to engage a target to not be able to use divine challenge a round later when they're conscious again. Eh.

 

[eamon]

Everything I said still assumed a world in which Sleep, Knockout, Night Hags, and Oni Night Haunters existed, there were ways to become Unconscious other than just damage. I still don't think the intent is to encourage coup de grace or attacking downed targets, and I don't think that it makes sense for a marks to apply while the marker is unconscious.

Exactly - I wouldn't regard it rules abuse if an enemy had an incentive to render you unconscious (via the dying condition or something like sleep). In short, there's nothing wrong with the sleep spell being used to end marks by the affected creatures.

It's as keterys said; they seem to simply have forgotten a (useful) rule stating that any and all marks immediately end when you become unconscious.

 

[DracoSuave]

Step 1: Monster walks away from fallen paladin, or coups de grace.

Step 2: Problem is solved.

But besides that, there is nothing inherent in the marking condition that necessarily requires the consciousness of the individual the condition marks to. A bard, for example, could use Misdirected Mark on an unconscious wizard if the enemy could not reach the wizard.

The only special rule for ending the marked condition is that it can be superceded by another marked condition. Other than that, you follow the standard rules for durations of effects for the marked condition, like you would for any other condition in the game.

 

[keterys]

Yep, and if an Eladrin Fey Knight challenges a PC then rides off, that PC takes 4 damage every round for the next 50 rounds... definitely RAW, but still not necessarily working well

Or if the PC explicitly doesn't want to _kill_ the fey knight. I know of one adventure where a fey knight is mind controlled and the entire mission is to bring him back alive... I guess the RAW response is to just sit there hitting the unconscious fey knight in a not-lethal manner for the next 40 rounds after combat ends.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I still don't think the intent is to encourage coup de grace or attacking downed targets, and I don't think that it makes sense for a marks to apply while the marker is unconscious.

Actually, doesn't the DMG explicitly recommend that the DM not attack downed PCs? I think I remember that it does, which provides clear evidence of the RAI for marks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yep, and if an Eladrin Fey Knight challenges a PC then rides off, that PC takes 4 damage every round for the next 50 rounds... definitely RAW, but still not necessarily working well

Or if the PC explicitly doesn't want to _kill_ the fey knight. I know of one adventure where a fey knight is mind controlled and the entire mission is to bring him back alive... I guess the RAW response is to just sit there hitting the unconscious fey knight in a not-lethal manner for the next 40 rounds after combat ends.

Conditional Durations: These effects last until a specified event occurs.

Until the End of the Encounter: The effect ends when you take a rest (short or extended) or after 5 minutes.

"And the fey knight is unconscious."
"Hooray!"
"Take 4 damage."
"Oh, right. We take a short rest."

As soon as you take a rest, "until the end of the encounter" effects expire.

Likewise, if the fey knight marks you then rides away, take a short rest. If he rides back and attacks, your rest is interrupted and you don't regain any encounter powers or spend any healing surges... but his 'until the end of the encounter' power has already expired.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Do the effects end at the beginning or end of the short rest, which requires 5 minutes?