Divine Challenge at the end of your turn

[LokiDR]

"On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target." On your turn, engage OR pick a new target. That is the RAW. This means that if you want to, you can switch back and forth between multiple targets and never engage. If this offends your concept of a paladin, do not use this tactic, but that isn't relevant to the rules.

The issue seen at D&D Experience that prompted a change to DC was the exploit of fully running away and the DC remaining active. In the case of twisted tunnels with a double move, that meant the enemy would never be able to safely attack ANY target. The paladin's best tactic was to run from the final dragon in the Scalegloom module. Now, you must engage an enemy to keep the DC active on that creature.

The role of the paladin is defender, and that means keeping the enemies occupied. In the standard 5 on 5 of encounters, what use is a divine challenge that can't effectively change for role that is intended to tie up enemies? You tie up one, the rest gang the wizard. That does violate the concept of the class.

In the example we started with, the ant eating your friend, you can give your friend a chance by DC the ant. This is only temporary if you can't get to the ant on your friend but it is better than nothing. Remember your role as a paladin: defend. You are there to soak the agro. If you can't engage the ant attacking your friend, you either challenge another creature, (leaving your friend out to dry) or lose DC for a turn (leaving your friend out to dry).

For those of you who consider this an abuse of the rules, consider a pair of elven paladins with bows, firing from the trees. Engage explicitly includes "attack" and not "melee attack" in it's definition in Divine Challenge. This means that I cause a melee character damage every round if he doesn't ineffectually attack me or waste his turn. This is perfectly legal by the rules even as they have been interpreted by most here.

In short, the rules say, turn by turn, engage or pick a new target. There is no requirement in the ability to engage every round.

 

[Bagpuss]

"On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target." On your turn, engage OR pick a new target. That is the RAW. This means that if you want to, you can switch back and forth between multiple targets and never engage.

Nope. You are taking that line out of context. You need to read the whole power.

At the top it says...

Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use the power against another target, or you fail to engage the target.

Since you can only use it once a turn, you can't go using it on another target so there is no need to worry about the mark disappearing because of that, but there is still the case of you failing to engage and after the bit you quoted it tells you what you have to do to engage a target.

To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it.

There is no requirement in the ability to engage every round.

But if you don't engage the mark ends, says so in the second sentence.

Say you mark the this distant ant with the your Divine Challenge at the end of your go, you can't get to it or attack it. You use the power you read the Effect.

Step 1: You mark the target.

You can do that no problem... however keep reading.

Check 1: remains marked until you use the power against another target

Well I'm not going to do that this round because I can't, I can only use the ability once around. So no worries there.

Check 2: or you fail to engage (see below) the target.

(below) On your turn, you must engage the target or challenge a different target (can't do that once a turn remember). To engage the target, you must either attack it (can't do run out of actions or held, etc.) or end your turn adjacent (can't do that either)

Hmmm I can't engage him so what happens?

If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can't use divine challenge on your next turn.

Bugger.

 

[AverageTable]

Yup, Bagpuss has it exactly right. Read the whole description of the power, consider how the different rules interact, and it becomes clear that a target must be engaged on the same turn it is challenged or else the challenge will end automatically.

 

[AverageTable]

As to the new discussion of whether multiple marked targets will all be under Divine Challenge, the answer is no.

Remember that Divine Challenge is a power in itself. It requires a minor action to use it, and it can only be used once per turn. One part of the a Divine Challenge is that the challenged target is marked. However, even though all "divinely challenged" targets are marked, not all marked targets are under a Divine Challenge.

Being marked and being under a Divine Challenge are not the same thing.

A paladin can, through the use of other powers, have multiple creatures marked at one time. However, no more than one creature can be under a Divine Challenge at one time; and even that one creature must have been specifically targeted by the paladin with the Divine Challenge power as a minor action.

 

[LokiDR]

Nope. You are taking that line out of context. You need to read the whole power.

At the top it says...

Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use the power against another target, or you fail to engage the target.

That would be the issue of not having books at hand. But that reading fails to account for actions such as move. On my turn, first I DC monster, then I move to a better position (not adjacent). At this point, I have failed to engage. Should the target be no longer marked?

But if you don't engage the mark ends, says so in the second sentence.

Agreed. Now, how often do we check for "engaged"? Is it impossible for a paladin to do anything other than engage?

Say you mark the this distant ant with the your Divine Challenge at the end of your go, you can't get to it or attack it. You use the power you read the Effect.

Effect: creature is marked. Each turn you must engage the creature or choose a new target to challenge. A strict reading of the second sentence not only makes for silly situations such as negating most movement, but it also ignores another sentence in the effect: "On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target."

Step 1: You mark the target.

You can do that no problem... however keep reading.

Check 1: remains marked until you use the power against another target

Well I'm not going to do that this round because I can't, I can only use the ability once around. So no worries there.

Check 2: or you fail to engage (see below) the target.

(below) On your turn, you must engage the target or challenge a different target (can't do that once a turn remember). To engage the target, you must either attack it (can't do run out of actions or held, etc.) or end your turn adjacent (can't do that either)

Hmmm I can't engage him so what happens?

If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can't use divine challenge on your next turn.

Emphasis mine. This is a clause of engage which you improperly apply to the entire ability. Note, divine challenge does not read "If at any point you do not engage the enemy, the mark ends." It says "remains marked until you use the power against another target or you fail to engage (see below) the target". Now, if the ability can only be used once a round, why does "until you use the power against another target" appear at all, let alone first?

Each turn, challenge a different target or engage. There is no requirement to engage every challenged creature every round.

Lets take another situation to show why your view of timing doesn't work. Again, paladin Bob has a range weapon. In the first round of combat, Bob moves and then uses his ranged attack against monster Tim. Then Bob's player recalls his divine challenge and uses it against Tim. At this point, Bob does not have another attack or movement to use to engage Tim. By your reading, Bob is buggered. A lapse of memory should not deny Bob his ability.

I'll grant, that situation is absurd in play, as no decent DM would be dick to Bob's player for such a mistake, but it illustrates a point of the rules. If we are going to technical, lets be technical.

If none of those arguments are to your taste, can we just fall back to the "say yes" advice of the DMG? This tactic allows a player to be unconventional in their paladin and doesn't contradict any obvious rule. It is not game breaking, it is interesting and at least I think it's fun. It does fit the paladin's role (take the heat for the other guys), why shouldn't it work?

Your table, your rules, you can call it as you wish, but I will need to have this discussion endlessly at conventions and RPGA tables, so I need to be prepared with a reasoned response. Don't take this the wrong way, I have no problem with your ruling, I just need to know the most "technical" answer.

 

[LokiDR]

Yup, Bagpuss has it exactly right. Read the whole description of the power, consider how the different rules interact, and it becomes clear that a target must be engaged on the same turn it is challenged or else the challenge will end automatically.

Then why targeting another mentioned twice?

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, a few related questions...

Does the Piercing smite mark over write a DC mark?
Lets say your wisdom is +4 and only 3 targets are adjacent; one DC'd, one unmarked and another marked by a fighter. Does the Piercing smite overwrite all of the others, or just the unmarked? Can I choose not to have it overwrite either of the others?

Well, the Fighter and Warpriest both have language that states something to the effect of "You may choose to mark...", whereas many powers have language that states "Creature X is marked."

If we assume that the lack of "You may choose" wording means the marking happens regardless, then all three enemies are marked by Piercing Smite, which overwrites the Fighter's mark. It also overwrites the Divine Challenge mark, meaning that when the Piercing Smite mark expires at the end of your next turn, the creature under the Divine Challenge will no longer be marked (since the mark applied by Divine Challenge, which expires when you use DC again or fail to engage the target, doesn't exist any more).

I'm not certain this means that he is no longer subject to Divine Challenge, however, while he remains marked by you, even though that mark is no longer the mark DC applied.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That would be the issue of not having books at hand. But that reading fails to account for actions such as move. On my turn, first I DC monster, then I move to a better position (not adjacent). At this point, I have failed to engage. Should the target be no longer marked?

Right. On your turn, did you attack it or end your turn adjacent to it?

If neither is true, then you failed to engage.

Now, how often do we check for "engaged"?

At the end of each turn, since engaging is something you must do on your turn.

If, by the end of your turn, you have not engaged, then you have not engaged on your turn.

Lets take another situation to show why your view of timing doesn't work. Again, paladin Bob has a range weapon. In the first round of combat, Bob moves and then uses his ranged attack against monster Tim. Then Bob's player recalls his divine challenge and uses it against Tim. At this point, Bob does not have another attack or movement to use to engage Tim. By your reading, Bob is buggered. A lapse of memory should not deny Bob his ability.

Uh...

Paladin Bob has a ranged weapon. In the first round of combat, Bob takes a move action to move around a corner, so he no longer has line of effect to monster Tim. Then Bob's player remembers that he forgot to use a ranged attack against Tim before he moved, and from his new position he can't. He still has a standard action he could use to move back around the corner... but then he wouldn't have a standard action left to make his attack!

Timing is kinda crucial to whether or not actions are viable. A lapse of memory should certainly deny Bob his ability, if he forgets to do something while it is possible and only remembers after events have rendered it impossible.

-Hyp.

 

[Tellerve]

So the thought is that every enemy in a Divine Challenge burst is marked by the paladin, but only one has the actual damage dealing DC mark?

It seems weird if that is the case when it says target one creature. Was this errata'd somewhere or on a FAQ?

Tellerve

 

[Kordeth]

So the thought is that every enemy in a Divine Challenge burst is marked by the paladin, but only one has the actual damage dealing DC mark?

It seems weird if that is the case when it says target one creature. Was this errata'd somewhere or on a FAQ?

Tellerve

Eh? No, you can only target one enemy with Divine Challenge, what gave you an idea otherwise?