Divine Challenge at the end of your turn

[LokiDR]

I agree. You issue the DC to an enemy, saying "Yer next, pencilneck!" or some other worthy insult, and then the pencilneck in question gets to quake in his boots till the next round, wherein you proceed to knock him out of them. Not overpowering, not an abuse, just good, clean roleplaying!

When it comes to fun outside lawyering the rules, I agree this is more fun. It also works both as "Come get some!" and "Where do you think yer going?"

 

[LokiDR]

I interpret the Divine Challenge to literally mean you can't just target someone as your last possible action unless you are already adjacent.

However, I allow that tactic in games. That was the way everyone at the table interpreted it originally, which leads me to believe it makes more sense inherently.

But the main reason I allow it is because it makes the Paladin a fairly effective Defender if it is allowed. ...

Well put. So, you consider my interpretation a house rule but one you like? I can accept that.

 

[Reaper Steve]

I was wondering about this yesterday while watching the Paladin player. At first, I ruled that he could DC at the end of his turn and he wouldn't be required to engage until next turn. But now I realize I was wrong... and I'm glad.

The rule clearly states 'on your turn, you must engage the target you challenged...'
A Pally can DC as the last action of his turn. However, it will only stay active if he DCs an adjacent enemy. If he uses his minor actionj last to DC a non-adjacent enemy (and some strange power doesn't immediately allow him to engage through movement or attack), the DC will then immediately end.

This wording allows the following:
Say a Pally DCed an opponent last round and engaged it at range (or was adjacent but the enemy moved away.) This round the Pally can reengage the DCed opponent (let's say he makes a ranged attack at it) then DC a different opponent and move adjacent to engage it.

That's where the 'challenge a different target' comes in to play. So far I've only seen 'DC followed by attack' but this wording allows one to attack a previously DCed target, then DC a different one and engage it. Or, he could choose not to engage the one he DCed last turn and DC a different one and engage it this turn.

Really, the wording clearly does not allow a DC to remain active past the end of the Paladin's turn unless the Paladin engages it that turn. This means the Paladin can't use it to try to pull an enemy off a friend... the Paladin has to go to it or throw something at it. And I'm cool with that... it makes the Paladin actively seek his foe, not the other way around.

Too bad I didn't figure that out sooner... maybe the Pally would have spent more time in the front rank yesterday.

 

[Stormtalon]

Thing is, the phrase "engage the enemy" isn't clearly defined and could very well include the act of issuing the challenge itself.

For a corner case to consider, imagine a paladin that's, say, 3 squares farther away from an enemy than even a double move would allow him to reach. The enemy on its next turn may be able to start wreaking havoc on someone who's gotten separated from the group. The paladin double-moves and winds up short but issues his challenge. He's clearly on his way to get in the thick of things with the monster, but according to the more restrictive reading of the power the enemy will be free to wreak havoc unimpeded and without threat of damage because this thundering, stampeding bolt of holy wrath isn't right next to him and thus not a concern.

I'm going to have to go with "the Issuing of the Challenge is counted as Engaging the Enemy," as it's the only reading that makes sense to me.

 

[Reaper Steve]

Thing is, the phrase "engage the enemy" isn't clearly defined and could very well include the act of issuing the challenge itself.

I'm going to have to go with "the Issuing of the Challenge is counted as Engaging the Enemy," as it's the only reading that makes sense to me.

It is clearly defined: (second sentence of third paragraph)
'To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it.'

So, issuing the challenge is not engaging.

 

[kouk]

For a corner case to consider, imagine a paladin that's, say, 3 squares farther away from an enemy than even a double move would allow him to reach.

 

[LokiDR]

I was wondering about this yesterday while watching the Paladin player. At first, I ruled that he could DC at the end of his turn and he wouldn't be required to engage until next turn. But now I realize I was wrong... and I'm glad.
...
Too bad I didn't figure that out sooner... maybe the Pally would have spent more time in the front rank yesterday.

So, you feel the paladin must stay on point and that "pulling" the enemy is bad?

 

[AverageTable]

To Loki:

I've repeated my views on this matter multiple times already, and by now you've heard everything I have to say on the subject. Keeping the discussion going now would be a waste of both our time.

I could respond to each of your points as I did before; but it's obvious that we're only talking past each other, anyway.

Although as one final unrelated comment, kindly refrain from accusing me of illogic and fallacy if you aren't even making your accusations accurately. This is not intended as a insult, so please don't take it personally, but there's nothing you can teach me about logic.

 

[LokiDR]

To Loki:

I've repeated my views on this matter multiple times already, and by now you've heard everything I have to say on the subject. Keeping the discussion going now would be a waste of both our time.

I do believe I have said as much.

Although as one final unrelated comment, kindly refrain from accusing me of illogic and fallacy if you aren't even making your accusations accurately. This is not intended as a insult, so please don't take it personally, but there's nothing you can teach me about logic.

If you offended at the thought that could make an illogical statement it is not I who seems to have an issue. I will continue point out statements I see as fallacious as such. It is the statement, not the person who makes it, which is the target. This is not an insult, merely a statement of intent.

 

[phoenxhwk]

So what's the point of a pally's mark being ranged if the marking itself doesn't count as a challenge? It seems silly to be forced to mark and then chuck a javelin at the enemy to ... umm, remind them that you just called them out.