Divine Challenge at the end of your turn

[Hypersmurf]

On your turn, you must engage or target a different creature.

Exactly.

That isn't a question. The question is "how long do I have until I am counted as failing to engage?"

In the simplest example, Bob challenges Mon then move adjacent to Mon then attacks. On Mon's turn, he attacks. Back to Bob, he decides to use a ranged power so he shifts back. At this point, he has failed to engage in the turn: he hasn't attacked and won't be adjacent at the end of the turn.

You hand wave this by only checking for "engaged" at the end of the round. Why is that more correct than after every action?

Because "On your turn, you must engage your target or challenge a different target."

At any point before the end of your turn, you still have a chance to do it "on your turn". Once the end of your turn arrives, you no longer have a chance to fulfill either of those conditions "on your turn".

At the point where Bob shifts back, he has not yet engaged, but we won't know whether he has failed to engage on his turn until his turn is over.

Now, instead of making a ranged attack on Mon, Bob now challenges Al. He has fulfilled the condition of the Challenge on Mon - on his turn, he either engaged Mon or challenged a different target. So the Challenge on Mon will not trigger the "can't use DC next turn" consequence.

But he's just used Divine Challenge on Al, and Divine Challenge has a condition - "On your turn, you must engage the target or challenge a different target." So on his turn - before the end of his turn - he must engage Al, or challenge a target different to Al.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

This is becoming very circular Hyp. I can repeat my interpretation but that's not going to help. Lets leave semantics aside for a moment and assume that either interpreation is valid. Which interpretation is more fun? Is either too powerful? I offered up a list of points for you to address, I could repost it if you would prefer.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This is becoming very circular Hyp. I can repeat my interpretation but that's not going to help. Lets leave semantics aside for a moment and assume that either interpreation is valid. Which interpretation is more fun? Is either too powerful? I offered up a list of points for you to address, I could repost it if you would prefer.

That's the thing, though - I'm not making an argument from the perspective of fun, or balance, so your list of points are irrelevant to me. I'm not going to assume your interpretation is valid, regardless of whether it's fun or balanced, when your interpretation ignores "On your turn, you must engage the target or challenge a different target" for the instance of Divine Challenge you used this turn.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

That's the thing, though - I'm not making an argument from the perspective of fun, or balance, so your list of points are irrelevant to me. I'm not going to assume your interpretation is valid, regardless of whether it's fun or balanced, when your interpretation ignores "On your turn, you must engage the target or challenge a different target" for the instance of Divine Challenge you used this turn.

-Hyp.

I've already explained my understanding of the semantics. I think you are ignoring the use of "or" in the description. We can repeat ourselves endlessly, but that's a waste of time. Responses here have made clear the wording is unclear. If nothing else matters because you are stuck on a few words and your understanding of them, what is there to discuss? If you just assume I'm wrong, you don't need to do anything. You've said nothing that will make me change my mind.

I'm not going to assume your point is valid just because you repeat yourself.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think you are ignoring the use of "or" in the description.

Not at all. If, instead of engaging the enemy on your turn, you come up with a way to challenge a different target even though you've already used Divine Challenge once this turn, I'll be content that you've satisfied the clause despite not engaging.

(Of course, that will still leave you needing to engage the target of the new use, or challenge yet another different target, on your turn in order to satisfy the clause in this use of Divine Challenge...)

-Hyp.

 

[jedrious]

I Divine Challenge

Then Eyebite

 

[Hypersmurf]

I Divine Challenge

Then Eyebite

That works fine - Eyebite is an attack, so it qualifies as engaging the target.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

Not at all. If, instead of engaging the enemy on your turn, you come up with a way to challenge a different target even though you've already used Divine Challenge once this turn, I'll be content that you've satisfied the clause despite not engaging.

(Of course, that will still leave you needing to engage the target of the new use, or challenge yet another different target, on your turn in order to satisfy the clause in this use of Divine Challenge...)

-Hyp.

If the implementation of your reading requires infinite regression, perhaps there is something wrong with your reading.

 

[MeMeMeMe]

If the implementation of your reading requires infinite regression, perhaps there is something wrong with your reading.

You may have a point, except Hypersmurf's reading (IMO the correct one) does not require infinite regression.

 

[LokiDR]

You may have a point, except Hypersmurf's reading (IMO the correct one) does not require infinite regression.

It does if you want to invoke the "or change targets" clause on the same turn you challenge a target.