Divine Metamagic Question

[EyeontheMountain]

Being able to cast the equivilant of an 11th level spell at 9th level - that's a very big problem.
If you want to reign in divine metamagic - simply state that the caster cannot exceed his maximum spell level (i.e. 9th level cleric can't DM a spell to be higher than a 5th level spell).

As I posted above with Metamagic Song (The bard version of DMM) Wizards obviously realized DMM was broken and worded later versions of the same ability to remove that brokeness. INC I tend to retroactively apply that logic in the absence of errata. But I am in a small minority.

 

[Marshall]

I'll have to disagree. Persistant spell requires a six leve jump. Even a 1st level spell can't be cast until 13th level, 2nd until 15 etc. (4+ requires epic levels) - this is not a problem.

It is when you can avoid the level bump. The Feat goes from nearly worthless to overpowered in a certain situation. Thats one of the indicators of 'brokenation'.

Being able to cast the equivilant of an 11th level spell at 9th level - that's a very big problem.
If you want to reign in divine metamagic - simply state that the caster cannot exceed his maximum spell level (i.e. 9th level cleric can't DM a spell to be higher than a 5th level spell).

Its not the equivalent of an 11th level spell. PERIOD. End of story.
Its still a 5th level spell. It just has 3+ feats applied to it.

The level cap is a falacy generated by the FAILED initial meta-magic system. If 'Sudden', 'Divine' or 'Song' meta magic had been the initial system it would be readily apparent just how weak the '+lvl' system is.

 

[Mort]

It is when you can avoid the level bump. The Feat goes from nearly worthless to overpowered in a certain situation. Thats one of the indicators of 'brokenation'.

The feat may be overpriced, but it's certainly not worthless. It's got utility for high level casters who don't want to recast spells. is that huge? No, but it's not worthless.

The problem with DM is that it can eliminate costs for other "high cost" feats as well, such as quicken - I don't know about you but quickened flame strike at 9th level (at least twice a day) is also pretty nasty. That points right back to divine metamagic.

Its not the equivalent of an 11th level spell. PERIOD. End of story.
Its still a 5th level spell. It just has 3+ feats applied to it.

The level cap is a falacy generated by the FAILED initial meta-magic system. If 'Sudden', 'Divine' or 'Song' meta magic had been the initial system it would be readily apparent just how weak the '+lvl' system is.

Well, mechanically it is an 11th level spell, wether it aught to be is a bit of a separate discussion. Still, rightious might (for example) for 24 hours is certainly better than rightous might for 9 rounds;regardless of what level it "should" be. A feat that allows it to be 24 hours for 7 turning attempts is pretty strong (or allows a quickened spell for 5 turning attempts).

Next,

The level cap is the only thing keeping certain builds (like the incantantrix) in line at all. Are there better ways? quite likely, but it's a way.

Also, your arguing two opposite ends in the same post - that jumping the level cap is broken and that the level cap is weak - you have to reconsile that.

 

[brehobit]

I want to add my voice to the "DMM not broken" unless you have persistent spell. With quicken it _is_ nice, but not quite broken IMO. Add in nightsticks or whatever the item is that adds to your turns/day I can imagine it getting broken quickly.

Mark

 

[EyeontheMountain]

I want to add my voice to the "DMM not broken" unless you have persistent spell. With quicken it _is_ nice, but not quite broken IMO. Add in nightsticks or whatever the item is that adds to your turns/day I can imagine it getting broken quickly.

Mark

Yeah, Nightsticks break down to 1250gp per turn attampe. So Persistant is under 9,000 gold and Quicken is just over 6,000. Those prices are a major problem

 

[Marshall]

The feat may be overpriced, but it's certainly not worthless. It's got utility for high level casters who don't want to recast spells. is that huge? No, but it's not worthless.

At +6 levels? Its worthless. There may be a use for the effect, but the cost is outrageous.
Its like paying a $100k for a Ford Focus. You're still getting a car, just a zero on the value gauge.

The problem with DM is that it can eliminate costs for other "high cost" feats as well, such as quicken - I don't know about you but quickened flame strike at 9th level (at least twice a day) is also pretty nasty.

Not really, no. Its still just a Flamestrike, you just get to cast it in addition to a Full round of actions. Worth about a Feat and five turn attempts.

Well, mechanically it is an 11th level spell, wether it aught to be is a bit of a separate discussion.

Thats just it, WotC finally figured out that it 'shouldnt aught to be' and came up with DMM, Sudden.....

Still, rightious might (for example) for 24 hours is certainly better than rightous might for 9 rounds;regardless of what level it "should" be. A feat that allows it to be 24 hours for 7 turning attempts is pretty strong (or allows a quickened spell for 5 turning attempts).

But the problem isnt the 7 turn attempts its the single feat that allows you to increase duration by 1440+ times.

Also, your arguing two opposite ends in the same post - that jumping the level cap is broken and that the level cap is weak - you have to reconcile that.

There is no level cap to jump. Claiming that a feat gives benefits out of line with its costs doesnt constitute a defense of the level cap idea.

 

[mikebr99]

Keep the point buy low if you are going to allow DMM & Persistent, I did... at 28 point buy, the cleric is really going to sweat having to keep his CHR and WIS up there. DMM & Persistent cost 7 turn attempts... the cleric in my party is only getting one off a day. YMMV

Mike