D&D 5E Divine Smite questions and a few comments about the paladin class

[Ricochet]

So I'm making a paladin for the Hoard of the Dragon Queen scenario, and was reading about "Divine Smite". I was curious: Can I choose to expend the spell slot after I hit? (the word "hit" in and of itself making me believe this, as I'd assume they'd use "attack" if it was before a potential confirmation of the hit).

If so, it would explain the many stories about huge Divine Smite critical hits. Makes sense that you'd expend the spell slots when rolling a 20. With a longsword in level 2 and expending a slot, I'd be critting for 6d8 damage. Seems slightly overpowered too, however, so I was wondering how others are using Divine Smite.

Also, the damage increases 1d8 vs. undead and demons. Is this a flat increase, in that it doesn't become 2-3-4-5d8 extra at higher spell slots?

Some additional comments about the class: Seems odd that there is no version of the Paladin with a bonded mount. I realize there is a Find Mount spell, but I was still expecting a "mounted knight" archetype. Also, it seems to me that the paladin spells that need concentration are quite numerous. Makes me wonder how good of a damage-soaker he will be vs. his utility, when he can't very well provide utility while soaking too much damage. Anyone have experience with your paladin's ability to keep up his concentration while in battle?

 

[Staffan]

Yes, you decide to Smite after you hit. You could hold off using it until you get a crit in order to get more bang for your buck, but then you're just doing plenty of attacks that only do moderate damage. The damage increase versus fiends and undead is a single d8, no matter what spell slot you use.

As you guessed, they moved the "special mount" to a spell instead of a class feature (just like the wizard's familiar). I wouldn't be surprised to see an archetype focusing on mounted combat down the road, though.

Regarding concentration, that could be an issue. It helps when they get to 6th level and gets to add Charisma as well, but if I were a paladin I would probably take the Resilient and/or War Caster feats.

 

[Raunalyn]

Speaking from my experience running HotDQ.

Yes, Paladins can choose to expend their smite after they hit. In my game, the paladin (Half-orc Avenging Paladin) has used this to devastating effect with his Maul. Of all of the characters in the game (a Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue and Sorcerer), he's the one who consistently does the most damage.

 

[Paraxis]

To help fuel your smites you might want to take 2 or 3 levels of warlock to get some spell slots that recover with short rests.

 

[Cernor]

So I'm making a paladin for the Hoard of the Dragon Queen scenario, and was reading about "Divine Smite". I was curious: Can I choose to expend the spell slot after I hit? (the word "hit" in and of itself making me believe this, as I'd assume they'd use "attack" if it was before a potential confirmation of the hit).

The trigger for Divine Smite is "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack", so yes, you expend the spell slot after you hit-- and cannot expend the spell slot before you hit.

If so, it would explain the many stories about huge Divine Smite critical hits. Makes sense that you'd expend the spell slots when rolling a 20. With a longsword in level 2 and expending a slot, I'd be critting for 6d8 damage. Seems slightly overpowered too, however, so I was wondering how others are using Divine Smite.

It seems that most people wait for a crit and then burn their highest-level spell slot to Smite for huge damage. I've never seen a paladin in play past 1st level, but it sounds like people use their Divine Smite exclusively on critical hits, as they have a pretty good spell list (bless, protection from evil and good and shield of faith stand out at 1st level).

Also, the damage increases 1d8 vs. undead and demons. Is this a flat increase, in that it doesn't become 2-3-4-5d8 extra at higher spell slots?

Yes, this is a flat increase. It increases to 2d8 bonus damage on a critical hit, though!

Some additional comments about the class: Seems odd that there is no version of the Paladin with a bonded mount. I realize there is a Find Mount spell, but I was still expecting a "mounted knight" archetype. Also, it seems to me that the paladin spells that need concentration are quite numerous. Makes me wonder how good of a damage-soaker he will be vs. his utility, when he can't very well provide utility while soaking too much damage. Anyone have experience with your paladin's ability to keep up his concentration while in battle?

The Find Steed spell is unique to the paladin class and gives you a "bonded mount". It wouldn't fit the flavour of the paladin archetypes (based on oaths) to have an archetype that only relies on having a mount, but if you want to have a mounted knight, you can take the mounted combatant feat to make you more powerful while mounted.

As far as the paladin's concentration spells are concerned (looking through the 1st-level spell list), bless, heroism, protection from evil and good, and shield of faith all range from good to fantastic in-combat buffs, so it makes sense they'd be concentration spells to prevent exploitation. The Smite spells (searing, thunderous, and wrathful) and divine favor are also good in-combat, but are ways to boost damage rather than providing utility.

As far as the bolded section is concerned... You shouldn't be soaking too much damage. As paladins can boost their AC to 19 at level 2 with a shield, chain mail, and defensive fighting style, very little will hit you. If you have shield of faith active, it increases to 21, which is higher than most characters reach, even at level 20. With such a high AC, even a fire giant, a CR 9 monster, only has a 55% chance to hit you... and you're only level 2. The chances are that you'd avoid all the hits coming at you, so you shouldn't worry about maintaining concentration too much-- until you start fighting creatures that rely on saving throws instead of attack rolls.

 

[Ricochet]

Splendid replies with some interesting analysis. Thanks a lot!

 

[LittleElvis]

I've got a 5th level paladin, though I've only played him twice, but I would definitely be concerned about losing your Concentration spells. Even with a high AC, you're going to get hit and/or take damage. The best improvement will come from boosting your Con saves because AC is a no-brainer.

I built a half-orc paladin that started with 15 CON, 16 STR, and 14 CHA. At 4th level, I took the Resilient feat for CON proficiency and +1 CON. So at 5th level, I'm getting +6 to my Con saves and at 6th level it'll be +8 with the CHA bonus added. So I'll have to roll a '1' to fail vs a DC 10.

If you bless yourself, you'll add 1d4 to your CON saves as well.

And since CON saves are the most common saving throws in the game, it's a perfectly good use of a feat even without the benefit to Concentration.

 

[Joe Liker]

You will get hit; that's just statistics. It comes down to a question of play style.

If you want to be good at buffs, you need to focus on Constitution and take the War Caster and Resilience feats. Charisma is less important in such a build.

On the other hand, if you want to be good at healing and offensive spells, you'd definitely want to have a high Charisma.

If you want to focus mainly on melee damage and plan to burn your spell slots with Divine Smite, focus on Strength and take feats that improve melee damage.

Obviously, you can try to be good at more than one thing. But every time you gain an ability score boost or feat, these are the things you will need to think about.

 

[LittleElvis]

On the other hand, if you want to be good at healing and offensive spells, you'd definitely want to have a high Charisma.

Are there many healing spells or abilities that use Charisma?

 

[Blue]

You will get hit; that's just statistics. It comes down to a question of play style.

If you want to be good at buffs, you need to focus on Constitution and take the War Caster and Resilience feats. Charisma is less important in such a build.

Depends on your Oath. If you are getting Charisma to all your saves at 6th, then CHR and CON are equal for making the concentration save, and may help reduce damage if it came from a spell requiring a Dex save. But that's just one oath of the three/four.

Also getting hit can vary depending on build a lot. Playing tank with the Sentinel feat, I wouldn't recommend sinking resources into trying to maintain concentration spells. Instead paired with another melee PC that draws attacks (sentinel, grants advantage due to rage, etc.) and you'll have less coming your way. Playing a dex-based archer paladin (perhaps Oath of Ancients) may also give you less attacks against you so less times to make those concentration saves.