Divine Versions of Arcane Spells

[Dinkeldog]

Hold Person is a level lower for Clerics than Wizards. I'd probably allow you to research it at 5th, but you'd have to give up one of your other 5th level spells. That would work for Mystra, I'd go case-by-case for other gods.

I probably wouldn't allow confusion the same way. Isn't it a domain spell somewhere, though?

 

[Larcen]

Hold Monster is a 5th-level spell.

Hold Monster is a 5th level Wiz. spell.

Oh, my bad. I seem to recall I saw it at 6th level somewhere. Must have been that Law domain version. I DO look at domain lists a lot.

eh, wait for miracle and get it for free.

Ha. Problem is, it will be a LONG wait. I'm only 5th level cleric remember!

You could make hold monster 5th level for cleric if the divine version was a bit worse then arcane.
Mystra is LG so spell might work diferent way depending on target's alignment. Or spell might work only on evil monsters.
Lawfull or Good align. monsters might be not held but slowed down.
Duration might be half of arcane version.

If you put if 1 level higher might work same as hold monster.
If it was 2 level higher might work on undeads as well and would make them unconsious rather then held.

Great suggestions. Thanks. I may even drop them on my DM's lap when the time comes.

Hold Person is a level lower for Clerics than Wizards. I'd probably allow you to research it at 5th, but you'd have to give up one of your other 5th level spells. That would work for Mystra, I'd go case-by-case for other gods.

I probably wouldn't allow confusion the same way. Isn't it a domain spell somewhere, though?

Hmmmm....the fact that Hold Person is a level LOWER for clerics is a great selling point, as is giving up a spell. But, what spell to give up I wonder? Maybe one "opposed" to the enchantment school would be a good idea.

 

[LordAO]

It really isn't fair to allow clerics to get wizard spells. Are you going to allow wizards to research healing spells? They already have access to many wizard spells through their domains (grumble), and the anyspell spells. Clerics are munchkin enough as it is, don't make it worse by giving them even more wizard spells!

 

[Thanee]

Except for domain spells and other notable exceptions, clerics should not be able to research (clerics don't exactly make their own spells) or be able to use any spells beyond the ones given to them.

BTW, you should notice, that you can use all your Domain slots from 3rd level upwards for Anyspell and Greater Anyspell, not just 3rd and 6th. I hardly believe you'll find any better spell to put in there, given you have a nice spellbook to read from.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Larcen]

Except for domain spells and other notable exceptions, clerics should not be able to research (clerics don't exactly make their own spells) or be able to use any spells beyond the ones given to them.

BTW, you should notice, that you can use all your Domain slots from 3rd level upwards for Anyspell and Greater Anyspell, not just 3rd and 6th. I hardly believe you'll find any better spell to put in there, given you have a nice spellbook to read from.

Bye
Thanee

I disagree Thanee. And if I had the books in front of me, I would show you exactly where the rules are for clerics researching new spells. If I recall, it involved a LOT of praying.....

LordOA, again I don't have the books in front of me, so I'll just cover what I think I can recall on the matter. Your right, certain types of spells are "sacred cows" for certain classes and as such it is highly discouraged that other classes get them. Healing spells are a good example that was given in the books. Non-clerics should have hard time getting them. The same thing goes for flashy devastating spells for non-arcane casters.

My point is that I believe that Enchantments are NOT on this sacred cow spell list. Clerics ALREADY get lots of enchantments. These spells are not flashy and actually go along well with a class that is supposed to have a strong willpower and are good at making people do what they want them to do, magically or otherwise.

But ultimately, I just want to round out my Enchanter-cleric with some "missing" enchantments.

Say, I just realized. I completely forgot about Charm Person and Suggestion. I would like THEM too! Thank Mystra for Anyspells. OOooo...can you make scrolls of spells that you get thru Anyspells? Can you add your Spell Focus bonus to spells you cast off scrolls?? Man, I am REALLY needing my rule books right about now. Darn this job!

 

[mikebr99]

I disagree Thanee. And if I had the books in front of me, I would show you exactly where the rules are for clerics researching new spells. If I recall, it involved a LOT of praying.....

Here are the rules for divine research:

New Divine Spells
Divine spellcasters most frequently gain new spells in one of the following two ways:
Spells Gained at a New Level: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study of divine magic
between adventures. Each time a character receives a new level of divine spells, he learns new spells from that level
automatically.
Independent Research: The character also can research a spell independently, much as an arcane spellcaster can. Only the
creator of such a spell can prepare and cast it, unless he decides to share it with others. Some such creators share their research
with their churches, but others do not. The character can create a magic scroll (provided he has the Scribe Scroll feat) or write a
special text similar to a spellbook to contain spells he has independently researched. Other divine spellcasters who find the
spell in written form can learn to cast it, provided they are of sufficient level to do so and are of the same class as the creator.
The process requires deciphering the writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above).

LordOA, again I don't have the books in front of me, so I'll just cover what I think I can recall on the matter. Your right, certain types of spells are "sacred cows" for certain classes and as such it is highly discouraged that other classes get them. Healing spells are a good example that was given in the books. Non-clerics should have hard time getting them. The same thing goes for flashy devastating spells for non-arcane casters

My point is that I believe that Enchantments are NOT on this sacred cow spell list. Clerics ALREADY get lots of enchantments. These spells are not flashy and actually go along well with a class that is supposed to have a strong willpower and are good at making people do what they want them to do, magically or otherwise.

But ultimately, I just want to round out my Enchanter-cleric with some "missing" enchantments.

I'd have to agree with you there... hold monster should be able to be researched for clerics... but this is a DM's call in the end.

 

[Larcen]

Here are the rules for divine research:


I'd have to agree with you there... hold monster should be able to be researched for clerics... but this is a DM's call in the end.

Thanks for posting the rules, Mike! But I recall reading more detail on exactly how it's done somewhere. No matter, the point is made with what you posted.

However, after reading the rules you posted I must say that I find it weird that the new spells can be shared by all. Basically they are saying that if some god of fire grants his loyal requesting cleric a new fire spell, then that cleric can easily pass the spell to a cleric of some god of water, and that now that cleric of water can continue to request that fire spell from his god over and over again once he learns the formula. That strikes me as odd. I would like to think that a newly researched clerical spell is more of a type of deal or contract that exists solely between the researcher and his god. Especially when the new spells crosses domains, or spheres of control, or portfolios, or whatever.

 

[Gaiden]

A couple of points...

Miracle will give you the spell for free (although that is a long way off).

Also, I am sure somewhere out there there is a domain list with hold monster on it. Simply take a PrC that gives you an extra domain and take that one.

I would not tamper too much with the cleric spell list. I am willing to bet that clerics are denied hold monster for a reason (especially because they get hold person at 2nd level).

Just my 2c

 

[mikebr99]

Thanks for posting the rules, Mike! But I recall reading more detail on exactly how it's done somewhere. No matter, the point is made with what you posted.

However, after reading the rules you posted I must say that I find it weird that the new spells can be shared by all. Basically they are saying that if some god of fire grants his loyal requesting cleric a new fire spell, then that cleric can easily pass the spell to a cleric of some god of water, and that now that cleric of water can continue to request that fire spell from his god over and over again once he learns the formula. That strikes me as odd. I would like to think that a newly researched clerical spell is more of a type of deal or contract that exists solely between the researcher and his god. Especially when the new spells crosses domains, or spheres of control, or portfolios, or whatever.

Oh I agree... but the maker of the new spell can put the power into a scroll and this can be shared with other clerics. If the other cleric wants to add it to his know list of spells instead of casting it off the scroll, he would indeed have to pray to his deity to enter it inot the permanent list.

 

[Larcen]

...
I would not tamper too much with the cleric spell list. I am willing to bet that clerics are denied hold monster for a reason (especially because they get hold person at 2nd level).
...

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."