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DM Advice: handling 'he can't talk to me like that' ~cuts NPC throat~ players.

robertliguori said:
Basically, as pointed out previously, a world in which there aren't immediate, dire, and (most importantly) currently-uncombated threats to innocent life and limb is both a non-stable world, and the default expectation of a D&D world.

I don't think that is the default expectation of any published D&D campaign world other than maybe Midnight (which has its own unique way of dealing with players who get out of hand). Greyhawk? Nope. Forgotten Realms? Nope. Eberron? Nope. Oathbound? Nope. Kalamar? Nope. Scarred Lands? Nyambe? Rokugan? Nope, nope, and nope.

Sure, there are threats in those game worlds, but in almost all of them, the reason no one is combating the enemies is because they haven't gotten to it yet, they don't care, they have other things to deal with first (but they will get to it later, maybe), or any number of other reasons. In most game worlds, there are a variety of individuals and groups with significant power other than the PCs. In most, there are plenty with more power than the PCs will have through, at the very least, most of the course of play.

In my experience, home brew game worlds that are set up to have "dire threats no one can deal with but the PCs" tend to not work very well. That's a decent set up for a fantasy novel, but as a campaign world, it just doesn't work - there are too many variables, the biggest being the PCs. But a campaign world is not a fantasy novel. The main characters don't always win, the villain doesn't always lose, and the evil threat isn't always a big threat to the world.
 

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Mallus said:
Well they are the protagonists after all...

Your point being?

In a Fantasy Role-Playing Game the protagonists don't always win. They sometimes lose, and sometimes get killed, even wiped out. If that can't happen, why bother rolling dice and pretending that the players are making meaningful decisions to begin with? Just say "well, you're the players, so you win!"

So a campaign world is logical and well designed only if every criminal act is punished?

No. Only if the people in power have the means to stay in power. People who let mercenaries run rampant, killing other soldiers and their emmissaries don't last in power long. They get replaced by someone who has the power to prevent that sort of problem. Quickly.

Perhaps the kingdom's military is currently stretched thin... say by a costly foreign war.

That is usually when military discipline and criminal enforcement are at their most stringent. Those in power know that showing weakness then means they won't stay in power long.
 
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robertliguori said:
But really, most of the consequences will be less dramatic than that. An area that discourages adventurers will have fewer adventurers; depending on the ratio of threat to potential civic response, this can mean anything from fewer random assaults, a more stable currency base, and taverns and brothels suffering an economic downturn, to Bubba the aforementioned demon being able to take a brief break to Plane Shift to the prime and reap a few thousand souls for his personal use. Again, it's not just about the harm the adventures cause; its also about the harm they prevent.

We aren't talking about discouraging adventurers. We are talking about discouraging murderous cutthroats. The PCs in question have engaged in murder of people under the authority of the government multiple times already. I think that just about any government is going to want to discourage people like that from hanging around. There are probably other adventurers out there who are willing to forego the pleasure of going on murder sprees, and those are going to be the ones desired and rewarded.

Heck, those are the adventurers who will probably be hunting down the murderous cutthroats.
 
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Mallus said:
Seriously though, at the point this starts sounding like good DM'ing advice, shouldn't you just lay off D&D for a while and go drinking with your mates instead?

Actually, his campaign world sounds like it would be much more interesting and enjoyable than any one that would be run the way you have suggested.
 

Mallus said:

No. The game is run for the enjoyment of the players and the DM. In many ways most importantly the DM. The game can go on without some of the players. The game without the DM grinds to a halt.

Any simulation aspects of the game --if present at all-- have to be in service of entertaining the players. If not, it's just the DM masturbating. In public.

You are completely, and 100% wrong. The DM must derive enjoyment from the game too, and those simulation aspects may very well do that. Your posts make me think you have never acted as a DM for any length of time.
 

I don't understand the idea that only the players fun matters and that the DM should for the sake of the game give up what makes it fun for him to DM.


Yes if the players don't like the game they will quit but the same is true if the DM does not enjoy running the game then he will quit as well.

Mallus says Any simulation aspects of the game --if present at all-- have to be in service of entertaining the players. If not, it's just the DM masturbating. In public.

What a very selfish way to look at it. I think it is time for some players to stop behaving like spoiled children and learn to play nice and share the fun. Because it should not always be about the players.

You are all there to have fun the DM puts a lot of work in ahead of time to make the game fun for the players. Would it kill the players to bend a little themselves and make the game fun for the DM.

I have one DM I play with who likes adventures and quests but not a lot of angsty style characters. He does not want any party conflict or complex backstories. So as a player I don't make an agsty conflicted ridden PC with a detailed backstory.

He knows I like role playing so he does try and have situations where I get to do it.

But I know if I want more role playing I play with another DM who thrives on angsty characters with complex backgrounds. One of the players in that group is more into killing things. But he tries to role play more and the DM tries to give him things to kill.

If everyone at the table made an effort to make sure everyone else was having too then I don't think we would have so many of these type of threads.
 

doghead said:
Neither side is going to convince the other. Both sides have presented their positions and now are just going back and forth over the same ground. Let it go.
QFT.

That having been said, I'm in 100% agreement with Storm Raven.
 

Storm Raven said:
We aren't talking about discouraging adventurers. We are talking about discouraging murderous cutthroats. The PCs in question have engaged in murder of people under the authority of the government multiple times already. I think that just about any government is going to want to discourage people like that from hanging around. There are probably other adventurers out there who are willing to forego the pleasure of going on murder sprees, and those are going to be the ones desired and rewarded.

Heck, those are the adventurers who will probably be hunting down the murderous cutthroats.

As I said, it depends. If you have a large population of civic-minded adventurers, the value of murderous cutthroats who mostly kill demons and orcs drops dramatically. On the other hand, I see little reason to assume a sufficient population of civic adventurers. Most of all, I see no reason to posit that a particular scenario will necessarily generate adventurers to fill it; if the world has a large active adventuring population, then they should be constantly aware of each other and sometimes stepping on each others toes. It seems to me that if there is a group of adventurers who are liable to come after the group who killed the Arbiter-person in the OP, they should be well-known and previously integrated into the setting, with their actions clearly visible. To do otherwise smacks of "This scenario requires characters who will do what I want. If PCs don't, then NPCs will."

Again, I'm not questioning that governments would want to limit the actions of high-level murderous thugs. I just question their ability to do so in most D&D universes.


On the DM-enjoyment aspect: DMs are just as much entitled to fun as players. I don't buy the increased-workload-means-increased-fun-weight argument; if I didn't enjoy DMing and worldbuilding, I wouldn't do it. That being said, coming up with a simulationistic world and then finding out how to cleverly pull genre expectations out of neutral rules is great fun, to me.

My view is that, as in every cooperative endeavor, compromise is necessary. Players need to balance their choice of actions against the demonstrated in-world consequences, and DMs need to sometimes look for edge cases to explain why the expected, unfun result doesn't happen. The party is captured by a ruthless villain, say. The predicted, simulationistic, and unfun response is "You are slain before you awake. Game over." This is not an ideal outcome. So, you need to explain why this hasn't happened in the context of the world. No one but an idiot wouldn't kill the party outright? OK, that means that the villain necessarily is an idiot. He's been shown to not have been an idiot in the past? OK, then something changed between then and now. Perhaps he was being advised by one of the PCs diabolical mastermind enemies earlier on, has since been backstabbed and is now working against that enemy, has rejected much of said enemy's previous (good) advice as obviously designed to lead him into bad decisions, and along with it, has decided that rather than killing the PCs, he's going to keep them alive but imprisoned to thwart the enemy's plans.

Simulationism is a two-edged sword; you need to not only enforce the rules consistently, but populate your world cleverly. Elements in the game world do not have necessary existence, if an evil overlord or a system of laws exists, it's because you chose to put it into the world, presumably because you thought it would be interesting for the PCs to interact with. If the simulationist rules of the world indicate that the existence of demon lords will result in an unfun campaign setting, you don't introduce demon lords as written.
 

Mallus said:
Any simulation aspects of the game --if present at all-- have to be in service of entertaining the players. If not, it's just the DM masturbating. In public.
No. Any simulation aspects of the game is to entertain me, the DM. If I have to suffer through your false dichotomy, then I'd rather it be me masturbating in public than my players masturbating in public. I'm not a charity. Believe me - I can lose a player and the game continues on quite well. They lose the DM, and the game is over. I play this game for my fun - if I didn't, I'd just go for a round of golf with them instead.

Of course with all that said, the post above is a laughable false dichotomy. The correct answer is - it has to entertain everyone adequately enough... the DM included.
 

Mallus said:
Any simulation aspects of the game --if present at all-- have to be in service of entertaining the players. If not, it's just the DM masturbating. In public.

I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon that this is one of the dumbest claims yet made in this thread. The DM, being one of the players of this game, has to get some enjoyment out of it too. It's a cooperative venture, not any individual player's, not the DM's, and not the players' vs the DM.

A DM whose job in presenting his work for just pandering to his players is not a DM, he's an employee or, if unpaid, a slave.
 

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