D&D 5E [DM problem] Is the group I am leading too strong? Is the 5E system unbalanced?

[Caliburn101]

After 5th level, the CR system starts to break down rapidly and is useless once parties hit double figures in terms of level.

I run with a rough formula that delivers good results for me. Once the party hit 5th (with all it's watershed power-goodies) I add the Proficiency bonus of the party average level to the 'appropriate' CR of the encounter threats involved, and I use twice as many lethal encounters per day (on average) as guidance suggests.

This seems to work well in terms of challenge and resource-management.

I also add extra CR levels equivalent to the estimated level of average magical item availability for the party (so +1 for common, +2 for uncommon, etc.).

I had a party of 5 x 20th level characters take on a homebrewed CR 32 Vecna and they all had artefact or artefact level weapons. The fight was close, but they won, and this was after downing 2 Balors, a CR 24 Demon Lord, the vanguard of an undead army and a group of Vampire Assassins.

So, level 20, plus 6 for proficiency and +5 for artefact level items, and that results in CR 31.

My formula worked for that fight and for the levels in-between, so give it a try!

 

[DEFCON 1]

Many DMs fall into this "trap". The blame for this should squarely rest in the lap of the designers.

Geez, Capn, are you still complaining about this? It's been three years already with the same refrain. You really need to get over this break-up and move on already. Pining away and demanding an apology from your lost love for this long can't be healthy. Especially when you know full well you aren't going to get it.

 

[Caliburn101]

Geez, Capn, are you still complaining about this? It's been three years already with the same refrain. You really need to get over this break-up and move on already. Pining away and demanding an apology from your lost love for this long can't be healthy. Especially when you know full well you aren't going to get it.

The good Captain and I don't agree too often on these forums, but he is absolutely on the money with his assessment here.

The CR system is completely borked - please see my post directly above on how I have to houserule to ensure challenge remains appropriate once high levels and magical items drop into the mix...

 

[Imaro]

After 5th level, the CR system starts to break down rapidly and is useless once parties hit double figures in terms of level.

I run with a rough formula that delivers good results for me. Once the party hit 5th (with all it's watershed power-goodies) I add the Proficiency bonus of the party average level to the 'appropriate' CR of the encounter threats involved, and I use twice as many lethal encounters per day (on average) as guidance suggests.

This seems to work well in terms of challenge and resource-management.

I also add extra CR levels equivalent to the estimated level of average magical item availability for the party (so +1 for common, +2 for uncommon, etc.).

I had a party of 5 x 20th level characters take on a homebrewed CR 32 Vecna and they all had artefact or artefact level weapons. The fight was close, but they won, and this was after downing 2 Balors, a CR 24 Demon Lord, the vanguard of an undead army and a group of Vampire Assassins.

So, level 20, plus 6 for proficiency and +5 for artefact level items, and that results in CR 31.

My formula worked for that fight and for the levels in-between, so give it a try!

They all had artefact or artefact level weapons?? Did they have other magical gear as well?

 

[Caliburn101]

Geez, Capn, are you still complaining about this? It's been three years already with the same refrain. You really need to get over this break-up and move on already. Pining away and demanding an apology from your lost love for this long can't be healthy. Especially when you know full well you aren't going to get it.

The good Captain and I don't agree too often on these forums, but he is absolutely on the money with his assessment here.

The CR system is completely borked - please see my post directly above on how I have to houserule to ensure challenge remains appropriate once high levels and magical items drop into the mix...

 

[Caliburn101]

They all had artefact or artefact level weapons?? Did they have other magical gear as well?

Not all had artefact weapons, and I did invent a set of Divine Legendary actions for Vecna (3 spells a round all cast at 9th level being one...).

The Paladin blessed by Pelor had the Sword of Kas and the Cleric had a souped-up version of the Wand of Days (from Return to the Tomb of Horrors). Other items were only slightly behind this power level (such as a Death Slaad Stone, one of the Greater Bard Instruments, a Staff of the Magi'ish staff etc.) and the whole running battle (I forgot the 120 Iron Ghouls and the intervention of Asmodeus...) was close.... very close. The party also had backup from Mordenkainen and a few of the Circle of Eight and had some permanent boons reflecting the power of them having absorbed fragments of the soul of Ashardalon the Ancient Red Dragon and some of them having indulged in the powers available from the Amber Temple in the Strahd adventure (also one had become a Wereraven...)

That game started at 1 pm on Saturday afternoon and ended at 4 am on Sunday morning...

... it was epic!

 

[Imaro]

Not all had artefact weapons, and I did invent a set of Divine Legendary actions for Vecna (3 spells a round all cast at 9th level being one...).

The Paladin blessed by Pelor had the Sword of Kas and the Cleric had a souped-up version of the Wand of Days (from Return to the Tomb of Horrors). Other items were only slightly behind this power level (such as a Death Slaad Stone, one of the Greater Bard Instruments, a Staff of the Magi'ish staff etc.) and the whole running battle (I forgot the 120 Iron Ghouls and the intervention of Asmodeus...) was close.... very close. The party also had backup from Mordenkainen and a few of the Circle of Eight.

That game started at 1 pm on Saturday afternoon and ended at 4 am on Sunday morning...

... it was epic!

I bet it was...but I'm wondering if the proliferation of magic items may be playing a big part in why the CR isn't working for you like it should? Just looking at the ones you named offf the top of your head it seems your PC's have alot of magic items and as you said most are at or near the level of artefacts. Do they have magic armor as well?

 

[Caliburn101]

I bet it was...but I'm wondering if the proliferation of magic items may be playing a big part in why the CR isn't working for you like it should? Just looking at the ones you named offf the top of your head it seems your PC's have alot of magic items and as you said most are at or near the level of artefacts. Do they have magic armor as well?

It was only from level 15 onwards that they really got bombed up, and remember, magical items figure in my homebrew CR calculations. From 9th to 14th, they had far fewer magical items and the recalculated CR's were thus lower, but my CR system still worked well.

My system works well for anything from no magic to high magic (well, 5th Ed. D&D's definitions of these in any case...), because the CR problem exists in spite of magical items, it just gets worse once they factor in.

Magical armour was not at the same level (the odd ring of protection and one set of +2 armour with others at +1). That was also deliberate as the top end AC issues are a complete pain once you go +3/+3 for a plate armoured/shielded character (or anywhere near it in fact...).

 

[Imaro]

It was only from level 15 onwards that they really got bombed up, and remember, magical items figure in my homebrew CR calculations. From 9th to 14th, they had far fewer magical items and the recalculated CR's were thus lower, but my CR system still worked well.

My system works well for anything from no magic to high magic (well, 5th Ed. D&D's definitions of these in any case...), because the CR problem exists in spite of magical items, it just gets worse once they factor in.

I'm not claiming your system doesn't work... but when you make the claim that the official version doesn't work... I think it's only right to look at how your game may differ from the baseline expectations the system was designed for. Your game just, at first glance, seems pretty magic item heavy and I'm wondering if that perhaps has skewed the results you got using the official system.

 

[bbrown12]

Hey,

this thread definitely has become too extensive to answer to any single post.

But thanks so much for all your responses and help! This has been a great help and I wrote down several interesting points for my next session!

BIG THX!