DM refuses to switch; players want to

[Teflon Billy]

QFT

If my players were wacky enough to push for a 4e game?
I'd make them pay - literally.
For the books *and* for my services as a DM.

I got paid for my services as a DM once

Community Centres will often pay you to DM (in Canada) but the players are ususally awful children.

Honestly, when the community Centre approached me (via my friend Paul, who was their activities director), the 15 dollars an hour was not a prime motivator.

I was in my "RPG Missionary" phase and thought I was--through the medium of my admittedly awesome GMing skills--going to be bringing in a whole new crop of gamers to the hobby.

The reality of it is that the experience pretty much soured me on the idea of "Gaming with Strangers", "Gaming with Youngsters" and hell, even "Gaming with the Poor"

Firstly, the table was basically about half kids with zero interest in playing. They had just been dumped their by their moms as the cheapest daycare on the list. They sucked. "No attention span too short" seemed to be the motto.

Even they were better than the handful of doughy white kids whose entire imaginary output seemed to be Themselves as inner-city Black Gangstas.

The rest of the table was kids/teens who "just couldn't get it", and by "get it" I don't mean the math, or the setting or even concepts like "let's pretend"...I mean really simple stuff.

Names. Names as you and I know them were out of the question. The concept was utterly lost on them.

Names seemed pretty easy to me. Really. I wasn't looking for anything culture-specific...just something that was recognizably a name.

The best one kid could do was I Really Rule. Apparently that's a name.

Another could manage It's not Rape, it's surprise sex in the Name: ______ section of the character sheet. When I asked what that was supposed to mean, he said that was his name on MSN messenger.

The kid who literally couldn't think of another name for his character than Eminem (despite attempting--and sweating from the difficult thought process--to do so for 10 minutes) was starting to look better and better. :\

The lone girl at the table was just a fat schlub who didn't seem to know why she was there, and seemed perfectly content to stuff her face with chips. Bags and bags of chips. One after the other.

The game itself was beyond idiotic. The entirety of the actions of most of the non white-gangsta-wannabe players at the table could be selected from the following list...

• I fart at him!
• I hump him!
• HAWHAWHAWHAW
• I kick him in the nuts

That's pretty much it. If they met anyone, those were the available responses.

The Doughy White Gangstas seemed to be unable to get anything done other than throwing gang signs at one another, acting "hard" and talking about weed they had clearly never smoked and "bitches" they had never "turned out".

15 dollars an hour was slavery.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Wow, that is a really funny pro-DMing story.

Your point on people having a difficult time with names reminds me of my youth in the mid 70s playing D&D. You would be amazed at how many characters (which were generally portable between campaigns back then) were named Gandalf, Aragorn, or Elrond or such. Fortunately, I had rather wider reading habits than my peers... my rather munchkin 14th level magic-user was named Ras Thavas -- from the evil scientist in Edgar Rice Burrough's John Carter of Mars series.

Likewise, I remember when my friends and I sat down to draw spaceships...all of which ended up looking oddly similar to the Starship Enterprise.

I suppose I should be grateful that gangster rap hadn't been invented back then.

I really think that creativity may be a learned skill for some. And how original is half of the stuff for RPGs anyway? We just have a larger body of material to draw from than those 12 year old inner city kids you got stuck with.

Ken

 

[carmachu]

I have an interesting situation. I've started a 4E campaign on Wednesdays for a couple folks who are new to the game. My Friday night group, though, is the group I most consistently game with. I joined them about 3.5 years ago, and the group itself has been running for may 6 years, using 3.0->3.5 the entire time. We typically do a new campaign every six months, though sometimes we have a year-long campaign.

Now that our current 3.5 campaign is winding down, one of the other players and I thought it would be a perfect time to make the switch. We both bought the gift set + a spare PHB each, making just about enough books for everyone (with the assumption that the DM was also buying). We'd been talking about the switch (at the table), and the game group was receptive to the idea.

The DM recently told me he has no intentions of switching, and will not be running any 4E games. He actively dislikes the powers system (fighters, in his opinion, now cast spells), and wants nothing to do with it. This is a conundrum for us because about half the group has been vocally gung-ho on switching for months now, and has no desire to continue 3.5 whatsoever (the other half is rather ambivalent about the whole thing and just wants to push dice).

I hear a lot of folks on ENWorld saying either "I'm not switching, and neither is my group," or "I'm switching, and so is my whole group," and I wish my group had it that easy. I was wondering if anyone had any experience with transitional strife in their group, and how they handled it.

Since the DM does most of the work, he has final say. SO you can either let him keep running what he wants and play, or someone else DM 4e.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Since the DM does most of the work, he has final say. SO you can either let him keep running what he wants and play, or someone else DM 4e.

There's another factor here.

The group had been talking about this for months, and this is the first time the DM comments on it? And rather than talking it out or negotiating any aspect of the system and situation he apparently just attempts to shut down his part of the conversation.

I have the feeling there is more going on here than we know or the OP may be aware of, for me and my groups this would be a clear sign that this guy needs to not DM anymore, at least for a while, regardless of what system you end up playing.

Has he seemed burned out otherwise?

 

[Treebore]

I am just amazed at how many people think 3E is so bad they aren't willing to even play it. I had no idea 3E was that bad. I quit 3E years ago and I would still be willing to play if its with a good DM.

Too bad the OP and his buddies hate 3E so much they don't want to play it anymore. I didn't think it sucked that bad.

 

[william_nova]

Except the DM isn't telling people what they're playing, he's telling them what he's willing to run. DM's aren't just there for players - they're running a game for their own enjoyment as well. Why should the DM be bullied into doing something with his spare time that he won't enjoy? That's ridiculous.

I think you're splitting hairs here, unless where you live gamers grow on trees in the yard and you can just go and pick a few whenever you need them.

In my experience the number of people willing to play is small, the number willing to run even smaller. This puts a responsibility on those willing to run games.

I never suggested forcing, bullying or any other term to get a DM to run a game he didn't want to. What I was saying was more like I find it potentially disastrous if a group has a DM who refuses to play a new game over the wishes of the majority who do; in that if the group cannot find a new DM (which is often the case) they are forced to quit the game or play something they don't want to, all to suit the minority opinion.

And personally folks I don't buy this whole "the DM puts in the most work and therefore he gets the biggest say" argument. I know a bunch of greybeards sitting alone in their homes wondering why everyone quit their game because of this attitude. This "the DM is God" argument is so stereotypical Hackmaster made a whole line of product around it.

I can see however by the number of posts that I'm on the other side of the point here. Perhaps I'm more easily entertained, or more easygoing. I'm also not involved in the ideological war of 4 vs 3. I have to say that in over 25 years of playing and running RPGs I've rarely come across a game I would not run if I was asked. Would I play 3e? Never in a thousand years. Would I run it if asked? I sure as hell would.

Now of course if you have a very large pool of people to pick and choose from this argument is mostly moot. You can obviously try endless combinations of DM and players until you find the right fit.

For some people, including everyone I've ever gamed with, that's not really an option. You have to make do with what you have, which includes some flexibility on the part of those who run, especially. Perhaps I've had a unique gaming experience in this respect.

if I have 3 folks who want to go in one direction and I want to in another, I will bow to the will of the majority. I work with players so that everybody has a good time. I don't selfishly say "this isn't 100% what I want so everybody has to suffer now."

Most times in life you have to compromise. Role playing games really aren't the best example of this since many people just Kobayashi Maru it and change the rules of the game to suit them. I have not really had that luxury.

 

[Andor]

For the OP, any one player or DM who puts system preference over the fun of the group (especially over one they haven't even played!) is pretty damn selfish.

Really? So if your group wanted you to GM Synnibar or FATAL you'd have no problem with it? Or to run a soap operaesqe game along the lines of Kimegure Orange Road?





BTW Apologies to Synnibar for mentioning it in the same breath as FATAL.

 

[psionotic]

if I have 3 folks who want to go in one direction and I want to in another, I will bow to the will of the majority. I work with players so that everybody has a good time. I don't selfishly say "this isn't 100% what I want so everybody has to suffer now."

Most times in life you have to compromise. Role playing games really aren't the best example of this since many people just Kobayashi Maru it and change the rules of the game to suit them. I have not really had that luxury.

I agree 100%. If my group wanted me to run Palladium for them I would do it, rather than leave a group of good friends and roleplayers I've been with for 10 years. The goal of the game is to get together and have some fun. The system doesn't make that happen, people do.

 

[Zinovia]

I don't think it's wrong to try to gently persuade your reluctant DM that 4E is not the coming of the anti-Christ. However the best way to do that is likely to include him as a player in a limited duration test of the game. Run one adventure, over the course of a few game sessions. Make it clear that this is not the start of an entire new campaign, but more a means of testing the waters. Ask him nicely to please set aside his pre-conceptions and try it out. Make it clear that you value his friendship and his input, and that it wouldn't be the same without him.

If he's not willing to even *try* the new game, then perhaps there's something more going on there. See how he reacts to the suggestion of a short 4E game in which all he has to do is participate. If he's still really negative about it, he may not enjoy even playing the game, since he'll be primed to interpret everything in a negative light.

Perhaps it's simply a case of him not wanting to have to master a new set of rules to feel comfortable running a game. The DM is expected to have a certain familiarity with the rules, and none of us (mere non-playtester mortals) have that yet. I can see where that would make him reluctant right there, as opposed to continuing to use the rules he already knows.

It's a tough situation if the majority want to switch and he doesn't. Talk to him and try to find out what his concerns are, if you can. Good luck.

 

[Voadam]

if I have 3 folks who want to go in one direction and I want to in another, I will bow to the will of the majority. I work with players so that everybody has a good time. I don't selfishly say "this isn't 100% what I want so everybody has to suffer now."

Most times in life you have to compromise. Role playing games really aren't the best example of this since many people just Kobayashi Maru it and change the rules of the game to suit them. I have not really had that luxury.

3 others "William can we come over and play the new GTA on your game console with you?"

William "I don't want to to play GTA, I find it offensive and its not the style of game I like. How about you all come over and we play this star wars video game I really like."

3 others "Well we really want to come over for six hours each weekend and play the new GTA on your console with you."

William "Well there are not that many people with a console and I don't want to be selfish. I bow to the will of the majority."