D&D (2024) DMG 2024: Is The Sandbox Campaign Dead?

[Reynard]

I'd personally put Hoard as a path adventure.

You can tell which adventures are Path adventures because WotC helpfully put flowcharts in them that are STRAIGHT LINES.

Which is hilarious.

 

[Oofta]

I think this underscores that there’s no clear definition of what’s a sandbox, because I found myself nodding in agreement at the idea of Rime as a mini-sandbox the way it plays.

A lot of video games claim to be sandboxes, by my definition of sandbox very few are. None of the ones I would consider sandboxes have any real overarching story because of the limitations that video games have. The Sims is a sandbox, open world games like BG 3 are not.

 

[Reynard]

They chose the most common type of play and the one that's easiest for new DMs because this DMG is clearly aimed at people who haven't ever DMed and potentially haven't even played the game. Going into enough detail to support a style of play that is only used by a minority of people and that, in my opinion, should only be run by people with significant experience was not justified.

I don't see what the issue is if they also want to sell modules. It's not like they can force you to do anything or that people are somehow blind to the concept that other options may be available.

I am not disputing any of that. I am only saying that since the majority of people start with D&D and most of them only ever engage with official WotC material, chances are the sandbox playstyle will take an even bigger hit.

It is like high level adventures: people don't play high level adventures because WotC doesn't make any -- because people don't play them. it is circular.

"These kinds of adventures sell better" says the exec who only publishes "these kinds of adventures."

 

[Reynard]

A lot of video games claim to be sandboxes, by my definition of sandbox very few are. None of the ones I would consider sandboxes have any real overarching story because of the limitations that video games have. The Sims is a sandbox, open world games like BG 3 are not.

Right. D&D has something video games do not, though: the unlimited resources of the imagination, and a GM.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

A lot of video games claim to be sandboxes, by my definition of sandbox very few are. None of the ones I would consider sandboxes have any real overarching story because of the limitations that video games have. The Sims is a sandbox, open world games like BG 3 are not.

I don’t think anyone would suggest BG3 was a sandbox. The Witcher 3 is often called a sandbox though, despite having a main storyline that is far more linear than BG3.

 

[Oofta]

That's why I referred to them as a "micro sandbox" - you can go in multiple directions and tackle things mostly in the order you want than a point A-B-C quest (from the skim I've done; I've only run the Castle portion).

I'd personally put Hoard as a path adventure. You hit A then B then C, etc. Not a lot of free roaming that I saw watching my brother run it unless you want to count the trip North - and that is both pretty barebones and has "beats" set to happen). I'd put the biggest sandbox WotC 5E has done with Tomb (mainly because of the vast jungle trekking), but even it still has points you have to hit to "progress" the adventure.

I think I said it initially, but short of the anthologies, all of WotC's adventures have a beginning - middle - end structure, rather than a true sandbox.

It would be interesting what they could put out that would be a true sandbox that doesn't get defined as a "campaign setting".

Maybe we just need to use a different term. I use open world to describe games like BG 3 or Cyberpunk 2077 where you have quite a bit of freedom to achieve goals but there's always an overarching story and, because of limitations of video games, predefined outcomes. In practice a DM can always change the outcome of a module if they want, but that means they are deviating from the text.

 

[Reynard]

Maybe we just need to use a different term. I use open world to describe games like BG 3 or Cyberpunk 2077 where you have quite a bit of freedom to achieve goals but there's always an overarching story and, because of limitations of video games, predefined outcomes. In practice a DM can always change the outcome of a module if they want, but that means they are deviating from the text.

I use a similar distinction, which is why i don't consider Rime a sandbox. it is literally written like a CRPG open world.

 

[Oofta]

I am not disputing any of that. I am only saying that since the majority of people start with D&D and most of them only ever engage with official WotC material, chances are the sandbox playstyle will take an even bigger hit.

It is like high level adventures: people don't play high level adventures because WotC doesn't make any -- because people don't play them. it is circular.

"These kinds of adventures sell better" says the exec who only publishes "these kinds of adventures."

Growing up I only engaged with TSR products but soon rejected the style of game they pushed at the time. I don't think people adhere to the letter of the rules as much as you seem to think. Meanwhile, they need to start somewhere.

 

[Reynard]

Growing up I only engaged with TSR products but soon rejected the style of game they pushed at the time. I don't think people adhere to the letter of the rules as much as you seem to think. Meanwhile, they need to start somewhere.

I am not advocating they NOT include the stuff they did, just that they should also introduce and support other playstyles in the DMG. And if you are worried about "too many pages" -- dump the Lore Glossary and use that word count.

 

[TwoSix]

A lot of video games claim to be sandboxes, by my definition of sandbox very few are. None of the ones I would consider sandboxes have any real overarching story because of the limitations that video games have. The Sims is a sandbox, open world games like BG 3 are not.

BG3 is an adventure path. It's just one with the degrees of freedom within its chapters that most adventure paths aspire to but never reach.