DM's and Rules Lawyers - How Would You Rule this Deadly Situation?
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DM-Rocco
Explorer
Nail said:
Don't get me wrong, I think my DM is nuts. I know that a shield has an armor check penalty that takes the bulk of a shield into account. I even suggested that a player could push into his enemy with the shield to knock the opponent out of the way, thus reducing the bulk of the shield because you are using it as a tool to help assassit you in your tumble, but he is nuts.
Yeah, I called you nuts
He likes to search my threads, so I know he is reading
Anyway, I strongly disagree with my DM on this point, and others, but we debate things out and I have a few victories under my belt, but ultimately he is the DM, if he want to imposed a rule that said you can't tumble through an enemy occupied square with a shield, then I can either not play or play by his rules.
I DM regular D&D, I play in his Grim and Gritty game, (G&G), and it is a more brutail and harsher world with closer ties to realism in combat and such things. I lose this round of fighting by conceeding the shield thing, but I may win the sneak attack rules. Recently he has tried to change the sneak attack rules to something weaker. As a 1 level fighter and a 7th level rogue who has invested 1 and a half years of play into his game, 7 rogue levels, the improved feint feat to make use of sneak attack and lots of skill ranks in tumble and bluff, if he makes sneak attack weaker, I will opt to not play any longer because he has gone too far.
Okay, now I'm ranting and raving. Anyway, you might not agree with the DM, but you should either respect his ruling or not play his game. You can debate it, but if it is carved in stone, the DM has the final word.
But I'll give you his e-mail address if you want to writew him and tell him he is a nut.
Last edited:
DM-Rocco
Explorer
Nail said:
Hmm, not sure what to say to that.
It shouldn't be considered a one sided fight that your side is not winning. The DM is the one making the world, if you let the players run the game and dictate what is right, then you are letting the inmates run the asylum, so to speak.
As long as it makes sense, the DM should rule for what is right. After some debate, that is usually what happens. The game is more complicated than it used to be. There are way more rules and it is harder to keep track of all of them.
In this case, this DM screwed up. It took him a bit longer than it should to come to that conclusion but in the end he did. My DM is a bit thicker in the head. He usually comes around a year later.
Hang the rules, and hang the code; The rules are more like guidelines anyway. Don't think for a minute that I don't know the rules or that I don't fight for what I believe, I do fight, most fiercely. However, in the end, you are there to play a game, not argue over rules. If that is all you do, you might want to think about becoming a lawyer.
Tatsukun
Danjin Masutaa
Is this what we are talking about?
(H = Horse, F= Fighter, G= Golem)
If so, and the fighter wants to move from E5 to B5, he will draw an attack from the golem when he leaves both E5/ If he Withdraws, he will draw no attacks for leaving E5; but he will still draw one for leaving D5.
He can walk through the horse, it's an ally. But, allies don't provide cover, so he still draws the attack when leaving D5.
-Tatsu
(H = Horse, F= Fighter, G= Golem)
If so, and the fighter wants to move from E5 to B5, he will draw an attack from the golem when he leaves both E5/ If he Withdraws, he will draw no attacks for leaving E5; but he will still draw one for leaving D5.
He can walk through the horse, it's an ally. But, allies don't provide cover, so he still draws the attack when leaving D5.
-Tatsu
Lord Pendragon
First Post
Oh, sure. Your diagram is all fancy-shmancy, but I still think mine did the job just fine.Tatsukun said:
Just to stir the pot with some thoughts that have not yet been expressed, I'm going to disagree with the majority here.
I think there is confusion here on whether a conjured creature is a friend or opponent.
According to the rules, they are neither. Granted, a summoned creature "attacks your opponents to the best of its abilities", but that does NOT mean that it is friendly to your group. If the best of its abilities means casting Fireball over a group of your friends and opponents, that is what it will do. A friendly creature would typically not Fireball allies, but a summoned creature is forced to attack to the best of its ability.
You cannot move through the square of a summoned creature as if it were friendly to you. The caster can order it to allow him through since it must obey his orders, but the rest of the group cannot.
Theoretically, the caster may be able to order a summoned creature to be friendly to the rest of the group (but even this is questionable since he can order its actions, but probably not its attitude), but he cannot do this to a Phantom Steed since it does not take orders from its caster, only its rider.
The steed is not an ally. Just because it is conjured by an ally does not make it an ally.
Nor is it an opponent.
It is an "indifferent" NPC (PHB p72).
There are no specific rules on moving through the square of an indifferent creature.
However, there are rules on moving through an obstacle.
The creature has to be an obstacle since it is there and it is neither friendly nor an opponent.
Hence, you can move through its squares, but it costs 2 squares of movement per square gone through.
So, depending on the movement of the Fighter, it would have cost him 5 squares of movement to get through the steed (assuming he must go through both squares of the steed as per the original post). But if he could move 5 squares with two move actions, he could make it through. Plus, if the steed is an obstacle (since it is not a friendly or opponent creature), it would provide soft cover while the Fighter is going through it (since obstacles can provide cover and creatures can provide soft cover).
.......
FHH5
XHH5
.......
I think there is confusion here on whether a conjured creature is a friend or opponent.
According to the rules, they are neither. Granted, a summoned creature "attacks your opponents to the best of its abilities", but that does NOT mean that it is friendly to your group. If the best of its abilities means casting Fireball over a group of your friends and opponents, that is what it will do. A friendly creature would typically not Fireball allies, but a summoned creature is forced to attack to the best of its ability.
You cannot move through the square of a summoned creature as if it were friendly to you. The caster can order it to allow him through since it must obey his orders, but the rest of the group cannot.
Theoretically, the caster may be able to order a summoned creature to be friendly to the rest of the group (but even this is questionable since he can order its actions, but probably not its attitude), but he cannot do this to a Phantom Steed since it does not take orders from its caster, only its rider.
The steed is not an ally. Just because it is conjured by an ally does not make it an ally.
Nor is it an opponent.
It is an "indifferent" NPC (PHB p72).
There are no specific rules on moving through the square of an indifferent creature.
However, there are rules on moving through an obstacle.
The creature has to be an obstacle since it is there and it is neither friendly nor an opponent.
Hence, you can move through its squares, but it costs 2 squares of movement per square gone through.
So, depending on the movement of the Fighter, it would have cost him 5 squares of movement to get through the steed (assuming he must go through both squares of the steed as per the original post). But if he could move 5 squares with two move actions, he could make it through. Plus, if the steed is an obstacle (since it is not a friendly or opponent creature), it would provide soft cover while the Fighter is going through it (since obstacles can provide cover and creatures can provide soft cover).
.......
FHH5
XHH5
.......
Glauron101
First Post
I was there
I was there, I saw it all. Call me Father Brian, adventuring cleric. While Lucifus was dropping ginormous centipeded all over the place (he was unable to position them because he'd been blinded by Dark Nagas) including a few on your unfortunate narrator. The rest of our party were assaulting the wall. Sure we took out the nagas, but the greater golem was beating the bejeezus out of anyone who went near.
The fighter, beloved, eternal, 5 years in the development character of a gamer, let's call him Stu, was in deep
. Down to 40 HP when one of the few Dark Nagas left standing petrified him. We all know that the despised 1 comes up on a save roll at the worst time. Fortunately, Father Brian has a few disenchantments ready to go and he succeeds at the first attempt, and suggests to said fighter that we head for the hills.
DM says, you're not getting away that easily, and a heated disagreement ensues. Not heated really DM just put out his ruling and Stu became somewhat upset. I thought it was a tough call, but that is what DMs have to do occasionally.
Anyway we all made it out alive, except for ensign henchman in red star trek shirt. You all know how that works. No loss no foul.
Thanks to this debate, and subsequent microscopic examination of PHB and DMG, our slightly embarrased DM offered apologies.
Might have been interesting had the fighter died. Ah well, Father Brian could resurrect him, if we'd been able to pick up the pieces.
I was there, I saw it all. Call me Father Brian, adventuring cleric. While Lucifus was dropping ginormous centipeded all over the place (he was unable to position them because he'd been blinded by Dark Nagas) including a few on your unfortunate narrator. The rest of our party were assaulting the wall. Sure we took out the nagas, but the greater golem was beating the bejeezus out of anyone who went near.
The fighter, beloved, eternal, 5 years in the development character of a gamer, let's call him Stu, was in deep
. Down to 40 HP when one of the few Dark Nagas left standing petrified him. We all know that the despised 1 comes up on a save roll at the worst time. Fortunately, Father Brian has a few disenchantments ready to go and he succeeds at the first attempt, and suggests to said fighter that we head for the hills.DM says, you're not getting away that easily, and a heated disagreement ensues. Not heated really DM just put out his ruling and Stu became somewhat upset. I thought it was a tough call, but that is what DMs have to do occasionally.
Anyway we all made it out alive, except for ensign henchman in red star trek shirt. You all know how that works. No loss no foul.
Thanks to this debate, and subsequent microscopic examination of PHB and DMG, our slightly embarrased DM offered apologies.
Might have been interesting had the fighter died. Ah well, Father Brian could resurrect him, if we'd been able to pick up the pieces.
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