DMs are too easy on their players
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
Raven Crowking
First Post
Ari,
Lots of respect for you, mang, but nothing I've seen has convinced me that CR/EL is as good a system as the ML/XP system it replaced. As a good example of this, he said cheekily, using the ML/XP system would have put the 3e ogre as a 3rd-level monster. It would not have been under-CRed.
Edena,
I have to side with you on the tough-DM thing, but the dragon encounter as described would seem like a set-up to win to me. Of course, I have no qualms about killing characters. When I started posting my story hour, one of the first comments I received was about how often the PCs dropped.
OTOH, your table = your rules.
Good gaming.
RC
Lots of respect for you, mang, but nothing I've seen has convinced me that CR/EL is as good a system as the ML/XP system it replaced. As a good example of this, he said cheekily, using the ML/XP system would have put the 3e ogre as a 3rd-level monster. It would not have been under-CRed.
Edena,
I have to side with you on the tough-DM thing, but the dragon encounter as described would seem like a set-up to win to me. Of course, I have no qualms about killing characters. When I started posting my story hour, one of the first comments I received was about how often the PCs dropped.
OTOH, your table = your rules.
Good gaming.
RC
Mouseferatu
Hero
Raven Crowking said:Ari,
Lots of respect for you, mang, but nothing I've seen has convinced me that CR/EL is as good a system as the ML/XP system it replaced. As a good example of this, he said cheekily, using the ML/XP system would have put the 3e ogre as a 3rd-level monster. It would not have been under-CRed.
Oh, it's far from perfect, don't get me wrong, with a few real doozies of mistakes. But I've found, IME, that it's a better measuring stick than what came before.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
(irritated look)
I'm not 'bluffing the message board.'
I made it very clear in my first post that I wasn't about killing characters.
I also made it very clear I'd create an illusion that I was out to kill characters.
Somehow, a lot of you got the impression that I was *only* about killing characters. You missed what I said about *not* killing characters. So yeah, I seem to have bluffed you.
I mean, here you are discussing how rotten and mean a DM I'd make or am, when I said I wasn't into killing characters. So obviously you missed something. I'm not making fun of you or even poking fun at you by pointing that out.
Now, you seem to be under the impression I'd throw dragons at 5th level players.
What I said was, I'd throw encounters of varying CLs at the ECL 5 party, including some as high as 20. I mentioned an ECL 20 dragon, and I did go with that example.
I never said the party was in it's territory or actively attempting to kill it. I never said it was after the party. I specifically said it would miss the party entirely if they hid in the grass and left it alone (which is what any wise 5th level party would do, if a Great Wyrm Red Dragon showed up.) The tactic the party pulled, hypothetically, would be a rarity ... not many parties are foolhardy enough to try such stunts.
Now ...
Let's have a conversation, not an argument.
Edena_of_Neith
I'm not 'bluffing the message board.'
I made it very clear in my first post that I wasn't about killing characters.
I also made it very clear I'd create an illusion that I was out to kill characters.
Somehow, a lot of you got the impression that I was *only* about killing characters. You missed what I said about *not* killing characters. So yeah, I seem to have bluffed you.
I mean, here you are discussing how rotten and mean a DM I'd make or am, when I said I wasn't into killing characters. So obviously you missed something. I'm not making fun of you or even poking fun at you by pointing that out.
Now, you seem to be under the impression I'd throw dragons at 5th level players.
What I said was, I'd throw encounters of varying CLs at the ECL 5 party, including some as high as 20. I mentioned an ECL 20 dragon, and I did go with that example.
I never said the party was in it's territory or actively attempting to kill it. I never said it was after the party. I specifically said it would miss the party entirely if they hid in the grass and left it alone (which is what any wise 5th level party would do, if a Great Wyrm Red Dragon showed up.) The tactic the party pulled, hypothetically, would be a rarity ... not many parties are foolhardy enough to try such stunts.
Now ...
Let's have a conversation, not an argument.
Edena_of_Neith
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Sound of Azure
Contemplative Soul
Why not actually say that in your OP instead of playing word games, and then seemingly taking everything back in a later post?
I don't know about you, but when I went to school I was told that if I have a thesis and I want to convince people of something... I explain my argument and lay out exactly why I think that (laying out evidence). I don't go on one premise and then backpedal, saying that I was fooling the audience.
It makes you appear wishy washy, flip-flopping on what you really mean. On the one hand you're saying that the dice should roll as they may, that encounters should happen where they will, and that the game environment will react depending on what the PCs do. In other words, if the PCs to something foolish, they will suffer for it, and probably die.
On the other, you're willing to (as an example brought up within your thread) roleplay a 1000+ year old dragon as a simpleton, and change the rules to allow a foolhardy action that should be punished with a swift death or other horrid fate (such as the elf mage becoming the dragon's new half-dragon incubator/ concubine).
The message you appear to be sending is inconsistant, IMO.
I don't know about you, but when I went to school I was told that if I have a thesis and I want to convince people of something... I explain my argument and lay out exactly why I think that (laying out evidence). I don't go on one premise and then backpedal, saying that I was fooling the audience.
It makes you appear wishy washy, flip-flopping on what you really mean. On the one hand you're saying that the dice should roll as they may, that encounters should happen where they will, and that the game environment will react depending on what the PCs do. In other words, if the PCs to something foolish, they will suffer for it, and probably die.
On the other, you're willing to (as an example brought up within your thread) roleplay a 1000+ year old dragon as a simpleton, and change the rules to allow a foolhardy action that should be punished with a swift death or other horrid fate (such as the elf mage becoming the dragon's new half-dragon incubator/ concubine).
The message you appear to be sending is inconsistant, IMO.
Edena_of_Neith said:
CR20 Red Dragon - 4d6+12 Bite damage, you are right they have no listed slam damage, but... okay, lets run the numbers and pretend the dragon has done this before.
Wizard 5 Elf (known for their increased Con scores)- possible hp with a 16 Con - 5d4 all rolls were 4s so that means 20 + 3x5 = 35 hp
Scroll of Stoneskin costs 1100 gp gives 10 DR
Average damage on 4d6 is 14+12 = 26 points of damage that is 16 through, so the wizard lasts three rounds, of the dragon biting him. If the Dragon didn't get frustrated and just breath fire on the dude- 16d10 (88 pts of damage average). The wizard might have a chance at whittling down the dragon's hp (average is 378) if he can get through the dragons 24 SR.
Frightening Presence Save is a 29. The Fighter is one of the lowest here, lets give him a +6 Will Save- makes on a 20. Lets give him a +10 (unheard of at that level, but okay).
Okay, so everyone makes the Frightening Presence save (maybe they all had Heroes Feast
).Okay, so the dragon some how its the ground and everyone dog piles the dragon, everyone assists the fighter and gets the guy a +10 bonus to hit (assist and flanking and whatever), giving the Wpn Spec Fighter a +20 to hit he still has to hit a 33 AC, which is only 35% of the time at this point. With his MW Bastard Sword he does 1d10 + 8 (two handed w/WS oh, what the heck give him a +1 sword) that is 19 max points of damage, lets make it a crit with max damage- 38 points!
Okay, so in the above you claimed that a Gargantuan dragon is stopped by a wizard with stone skin- why? Did the Wizard have an Immoveable Rod stuck up his behind?
In all seriousness, you have a great idea- just very unrealistic views.
Edena_of_Neith said:
Edena, I agree, conversations are good, but please, try to think about the possibilities before you push it out there. It seems that you are arguing an unreasonable view, and unrealistic points.
The dragon fight- completely win-able, just not in a million years with a group of 5th level characters, unless they have had lots of prep time.
Good luck, hope it all works for you.
Sound of Azure
Contemplative Soul
Harmon said:
I think in that case, the rod wouldn't move... but the wizard would. Ow...
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Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Ok, this is meant as humor, and to make a point. It did happen, though.
A long time ago, I was in a game with low level characters (1st through 3rd) and the DM threw a full sized red dragon at us. Really!
Well, if you think that's ridiculous, consider what happened next ...
Our party illusionist (and it wasn't me, guys) threw the 1st level spell Phantasmal Force (if you are not familiar with this 1st/2nd edition spell, ask) and ... KILLED the dragon with the illusion of a cave in!
And, if you think that's ridiculous ...
Everyone spent the next hour - an hour of my precious time - arguing about the matter.
The DM conceded that the player was right, the Phantasmal Force would have worked, and the mature adult red dragon was dead.
Heh. Now ... that's in the realm of the implausible!
-
Let me make something clear: I'm not usually in the habit of throwing great wyrm red dragons against 5th level characters. Heh. LOL.
It should be clear from my earlier posts that this is so, but if it is not, I'm making it clear now. I'm making it *clear* now, so let me say it again:
*I'm not in the habit of throwing great wyrm red dragons against 5th level characters.*
A long time ago, I was in a game with low level characters (1st through 3rd) and the DM threw a full sized red dragon at us. Really!
Well, if you think that's ridiculous, consider what happened next ...
Our party illusionist (and it wasn't me, guys) threw the 1st level spell Phantasmal Force (if you are not familiar with this 1st/2nd edition spell, ask) and ... KILLED the dragon with the illusion of a cave in!
And, if you think that's ridiculous ...
Everyone spent the next hour - an hour of my precious time - arguing about the matter.
The DM conceded that the player was right, the Phantasmal Force would have worked, and the mature adult red dragon was dead.
Heh. Now ... that's in the realm of the implausible!
-
Let me make something clear: I'm not usually in the habit of throwing great wyrm red dragons against 5th level characters. Heh. LOL.
It should be clear from my earlier posts that this is so, but if it is not, I'm making it clear now. I'm making it *clear* now, so let me say it again:
*I'm not in the habit of throwing great wyrm red dragons against 5th level characters.*
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Doug McCrae
Legend
Why does the wizard use this valuable scroll of stoneskin anyway? If stoneskin is so amazing in this universe wouldn't everyone cast it? Wouldn't the dragon have cast it too? If it's so useful and presumably therefore also common wouldn't even an overconfident dragon be well aware of the possibility?
And, most damning of all, why does the GM send the dragon at the PCs only once they have a stoneskin up? If he's playing hardball, why not wait for it to go down? Why, if he's playing hardball, go so easy on the players? Why not have the dragon breathe on the wizard and/or party?
The only reason I can think of is that this is a GM who has thrown an overpowered encounter at the PCs and is frantically trying to REBALANCE things through unlikely and implausible rulings. This is a GM committed above all else to balance. Exactly what Edena railed against in his first post.
But was that post a lie? Was the retraction a lie? Was the dragon example all a lie? I'm sorry but if you've admitted that one of your posts was misleading why should we pay attention to any of your posts in future? Might they not also be attempts to mislead?
Now if the PCs just hide from the dragon, then I'd be very happy to let them escape. That's smart play for a level 5 party, faced with a CR 20 foe. We did that back in a 2nd ed game. It was a very brief encounter, we were about level 5-6. We saw a big blue dragon up in the Crystalmists and we hid. That was it, but I found it a cool and exciting encounter.
But if we'd fought it and the GM started pulling out unlikely rulings to save what should be our deep-fried asses I wouldn't have liked that at all. I once watched a game where a level 1 party beat a roc in 2nd ed due to awful rulings and lack of knowledge on the GM's part. It felt wrong to me. Sometimes the PCs should just die.
And, most damning of all, why does the GM send the dragon at the PCs only once they have a stoneskin up? If he's playing hardball, why not wait for it to go down? Why, if he's playing hardball, go so easy on the players? Why not have the dragon breathe on the wizard and/or party?
The only reason I can think of is that this is a GM who has thrown an overpowered encounter at the PCs and is frantically trying to REBALANCE things through unlikely and implausible rulings. This is a GM committed above all else to balance. Exactly what Edena railed against in his first post.
But was that post a lie? Was the retraction a lie? Was the dragon example all a lie? I'm sorry but if you've admitted that one of your posts was misleading why should we pay attention to any of your posts in future? Might they not also be attempts to mislead?
Now if the PCs just hide from the dragon, then I'd be very happy to let them escape. That's smart play for a level 5 party, faced with a CR 20 foe. We did that back in a 2nd ed game. It was a very brief encounter, we were about level 5-6. We saw a big blue dragon up in the Crystalmists and we hid. That was it, but I found it a cool and exciting encounter.
But if we'd fought it and the GM started pulling out unlikely rulings to save what should be our deep-fried asses I wouldn't have liked that at all. I once watched a game where a level 1 party beat a roc in 2nd ed due to awful rulings and lack of knowledge on the GM's part. It felt wrong to me. Sometimes the PCs should just die.
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