DMs are too easy on their players

[+5 Keyboard!]

LOL
Someone please stick a fork in this one. It's beyond done.
Sounds like the OP had a brilliantly clever and funny idea for a post (in his mind, anyway) that just went terribly wrong. I hate putting my time into giving a thoughtful and intelligent response to a post only to find out the OP was just putting everyone on. Oh, well.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

yeah a level 5 party vs a cr 20 dragon....


This is within reason, almost impossible. their is too much that can go wrong. Their could be a slim chance at winning though if the dragon was asleep. Using hit and run tactics. Lots of summoning, using poison, getting a surprise round and after words winning initiative. Causing rock slides, using dragon bane equipment, ect...


A dragon thats fully awake, fully buffed and already gunning for the pcs ... thats impossible.

 

[Thurbane]

If Warduke isn't laying the smackdown on your party by 3rd level, obviously the DM is a creampuff!

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(cold look)

Enough.

I have stated there should be more tough DMs.
I have stated there should be more players willing to give their best in the game.

I think the current culture fosters pampering the players.
I think the current culture fosters the players whining whenever things become remotely tough.
I think the current culture destroys the magic that existed of old in D&D games.
I think the current culture makes it impossible for DMs to get tough and demand the best out of their players.

If I think a ECL 5 party should have to take on a CR 20 dragon, then that's the challenge.
The group can use the resources they have, and win.
Or the group can stop playing and instead endlessly discuss how ECL 5 parties can't win against CR 20 dragons, and come up with endless reasons within the rules that justify why winning is impossible ... and lose.

You want to be a winner in D&D?
Roleplay. Have fun. Solve the puzzles. Overcome obstacles.
And when the big challenges come along, rise to the occasion and fight.
Hiding in a cocoon of rules and justifications the current culture has created, isn't going to save you in my game. It isn't going to budge me one bit. And it most certainly isn't going to garner sympathy from me.

You want to roleplay a fierce, ferocious warrior? Then roleplay a fierce, ferocious warrior!
Lose the coddled attitude, the rules cocoon, the ECL and CR justifications, the reasons why it can't be done. Stand up and fight. And win.
You want to play within the cocoon? Not in my game, you won't.

And no, I'm not 'bluffing.'
Back in the harsh days of earlier games in 1E and 2E, all this nonsense I'm hearing would have received a reception far, far colder than anything *I'm* writing now.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

And yeah, Stoneskin works that way. If for no other reason, because I'm the DM and I say it works that way.

If the players - they know how Stoneskin works in my game - take advantage of how it works, then all the better for them.
But if they sit and whine about how Stoneskin doesn't work that way, shouldn't work that way, couldn't work that way, then that's just too bad for them. Because I say it works that way, and my monsters use it that way.

When someone else is DMing, they can rule anything they want about Stoneskin.
But in my game, that's how it works. Like it or lump it.

Being congenial to the players doesn't mean me doing exactly what they tell me.

Courteous and respectful players asking to discuss the rules - that gets my respect and attention, and I consider what they have to say.
Rude, obnoxious, rules-lawyering, whining players, get neither my sympathy nor respects. They certainly get no rules adjustments in their favor by such behavior.

Edena_of_Neith

 

[shilsen]

(cold look)

Cute. Or are you just kidding us?

Enough.

I have stated there should be more tough DMs.
I have stated there should be more players willing to give their best in the game.

I've stated that we need more posters to learn to be succinct and clear in their posts. Doesn't mean that it's going to happen. Or that my statements matter a damn or should be taken that seriously by anyone, including me.

I think the current culture fosters pampering the players.
I think the current culture fosters the players whining whenever things become remotely tough.
I think the current culture destroys the magic that existed of old in D&D games.
I think the current culture makes it impossible for DMs to get tough and demand the best out of their players.

I think you should read more threads on ENWorld and then maybe you'll see that your opinion needs a little more foundation.

You want to be a winner in D&D?...

I'll give you a simpler formula. You want to be a winner in D&D? Get together with some friends, play the game, and all of you have fun. If you do, then you're a winner in D&D.

And no, I'm not 'bluffing.'

Yeah, but maybe you're bluffing about not bluffing. That's the thing with bluffing. See?

Back in the harsh days of earlier games in 1E and 2E, all this nonsense I'm hearing would have received a reception far, far colder than anything *I'm* writing now.

Was that meant to be cold? I can never tell.

 

[Tewligan]

Because I am a fierce, ferocious warrior with stoneskin, I shall boldly push forward, despite your (cold look) and stern words. Even in the old editions, 5th level characters wouldn't reasonably fight ancient dragons. Yes, yes, you can be the tough guy DM who refuses to coddle his players and throws ridiculous scenarios at them, but...

Ahh, never mind. This reminds me of the analogy between internet arguments and the Special Olympics. I'm done with this nonsense - play it however you want.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Edena, don't bother arguing.

According to some people on this board if you so much as intentionally plan an encounter that has a definite chance of killing a PC or two your an adversarial DM.

Just realize there are gamers that have been that traumatized and just go on.

Heck, I shouldn't even have made my last post.

Well put, Treebore.

I've made my point. I know a lot of people got the general message I was trying to make. And I know a lot of people agree with what I was trying to say.
That's good enough for me.

Finis. I'm out of this thread.
Those who want to continue the profound discourtesy, the insults, the threadcrapping, the baiting, the deliberate attempts at derailment of the topic, the subtle violations and sometimes open violations of ENWorld rules, can do it without me.

Edena_of_Neith

 

[Gentlegamer]

Those who want to continue the profound discourtesy, the insults, the threadcrapping, the baiting, the deliberate attempts at derailment of the topic, the subtle violations and sometimes open violations of ENWorld rules, can do it without me.

This might be ironic, given the subject.

 

[robberbaron]

So let me get this straight...

Seemingly common occurance:
DM places a challenge in front of the party. They have already had several challenges without the chance to rest.
<Players> Hang on. We're low on spells and HP and there's another encounter?
<DM> Yep. Roll initiative.
<Players> That's not fair! That's not balanced! You're not doing it right!* (* delete as appropriate)

As a DM I wouldn't want to run a game for such a bunch of lily-livered babies.
If you want 8 hours kip per night don't go out into the wilderness.
If you want to rest between encounters get spells/items that facilitate it.
If you don't want your characters to be in constant peril play Teletubbies the Role-Playing Game. Then again, that big rabbit. Bit scary.

Sounds to me like this argument has gone from one extreme to the other and I hope that the majority of DMs/Players are somewhere in the middle. I know mine are.