DMs are too easy on their players

[Numion]

Lots of respect for you, mang, but nothing I've seen has convinced me that CR/EL is as good a system as the ML/XP system it replaced.

This far the system has allowed two of my players to become first time DMs, and run a good campaign from 1st to 12th and 1st to 8th level, respectively. They ballparked the encounters using that system and came up with enough challenging and interesting encounters.

They might've learned to become such good DMs just by watching me DM, but I doubt that; I was never that good. I think the EL/CR system is to thank, for the most part.

As for this thread, it started on a good premise, IMO. For once Edena seemed to have an actual point, but he pissed it all away with the example which was against all good DMing advice I've heard.

That wasn't a player rising up to the challenge (which is a great thing to see from a DMs perspective). It was the DM backing down from a challenge. People here decry using only appropriate challenges (ELs) - in which they are right. (Using only EL = party level is misuse of the system, ELs should be distributed from EL 5+ average level to EL 5- average level, RTFM and all that.) But much worse than that is to present a fake challenge, a CR 20 that's defeated as CR 5. After that, challenges hardly mean anything.

I'd rather come out bloodied and missing a few comrades against CR 10 than being 'teh winnar' against CR 20 dragon that's played like a retard with DM on my side. The latter one isn't a challenge at all, and I don't like D&D without challenge.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I have stated there should be more tough DMs.

But by your own definition, you're not a tough DM. You're a DM who only has his high CR monsters attack, not when the PCs are low on hit points and spells, but during the brief 70 min window when they're buffed with stoneskin.

What you're doing there is trying to balance the encounter, precisely what you told us not to do in your first post. Then you have the dragon do exactly what it must do to lose, and make implausible rulings, again to balance the battle.

 

[Doug McCrae]

So there are all these whining players right? DMs are beset by them at the moment. And what solution do these DMs choose? Discuss the problem with their group? No. They come on a message board and whine about how there are so many whining players and say other DMs should be tougher on *their* players. But other DM's players aren't the problem.

I have a suggestion. If you have a problem with your players, sort it out with them. Or get new players.

 

[shilsen]

Finis. I'm out of this thread.
Those who want to continue the profound discourtesy, the insults, the threadcrapping, the baiting, the deliberate attempts at derailment of the topic, the subtle violations and sometimes open violations of ENWorld rules, can do it without me.

Edena_of_Neith

Back in...

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[Doug McCrae]

Courteous and respectful players asking to discuss the rules - that gets my respect and attention, and I consider what they have to say.
Rude, obnoxious, rules-lawyering, whining players, get neither my sympathy nor respects. They certainly get no rules adjustments in their favor by such behavior.

Wow! You prefer courteous people to rude people??! That's the most shocking and interesting opinion I've heard all year.

What's next? Nice things are better than nasty things? Or perhaps you prefer good things to bad things.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Edena_of_Neith is too easy on his players.

But by your own definition, you're not a tough DM. You're a DM who only has his high CR monsters attack, not when the PCs are low on hit points and spells, but during the brief 70 min window when they're buffed with stoneskin.

What you're doing there is trying to balance the encounter, precisely what you told us not to do in your first post. Then you have the dragon do exactly what it must do to lose, and make implausible rulings, again to balance the battle.

*ding ding ding*

Edena says he's a tough DM, but everything says the opposite. I've killed PCs before they got around to their initiative order to act in the first combat of the day, and I don't really consider myself to be a "killer" DM.. I see nothing tough about Edena's playstyle at all!

 

[Numion]

I see nothing tough about Edena's playstyle at all!

Incidentally, his namesake D&D character Edena was apparently presided over by wuss DMs. When someone says they've got 121st level character, you know there's something fishy going on.

In Edenas case he had one 'Master Edena' and many lesser versions of Edena. When someone DMed a game for 5th level PCs, for example, he couldn't play Master Edena, but made a 5th level character named Edena. If the Edena levelled, he would level up the Master Edena. That apparently happened 121 times, but it wasn't a single character who advanced to those levels. Not exactly kosher, is it?

And this is the man now advocating tough DMing? Granted, Edena had some tough DMs, like the butt-pirates* handling of Edena in one adventure proves, but I don't think that's the kind of tough love even he would advocate

* you don't wanna know, but if you do, ask Edena :\

 

[Raven Crowking]

This far the system has allowed two of my players to become first time DMs, and run a good campaign from 1st to 12th and 1st to 8th level, respectively. They ballparked the encounters using that system and came up with enough challenging and interesting encounters.

And I've had several players become DMs under ML/XP. They were able to come up with challenging and interesting encounters, too.

As for this thread, it started on a good premise, IMO. For once Edena seemed to have an actual point, but he pissed it all away with the example which was against all good DMing advice I've heard.

I tend to agree with you here.

 

[Asmo]

*ding ding ding*I've killed PCs before they got around to their initiative order to act in the first combat of the day, and I don't really consider myself to be a "killer" DM.. I see nothing tough about Edena's playstyle at all!

Bah! Youngsters! As a DM I used to kill characters before they even were made!

Asmo

 

[Derren]

But by your own definition, you're not a tough DM. You're a DM who only has his high CR monsters attack, not when the PCs are low on hit points and spells, but during the brief 70 min window when they're buffed with stoneskin.

What you're doing there is trying to balance the encounter, precisely what you told us not to do in your first post. Then you have the dragon do exactly what it must do to lose, and make implausible rulings, again to balance the battle.

I couldn't have said it better.